Bonsai design

Tree’s that provide us with inspiration.
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Bonsai design

Post by treeman »

What a vast subject! I'm beginning to regret starting this already.
When we look at bonsai at the various shows, on line, in books etc we may think something is not quite right. Many if not all of the trees could appear to us as clones of each other or very similar to many others we have seen. As if they had been developed according to a set of rigid rules. Why is this? Well it's because they were! Perhaps they might not look like trees to us. I will show some examples of what I mean further on.

What is the first thing you think of when you have fresh material in front of you? After you have determined the best front, Is it ''What kind of tree is this and how does it grow''? or is it ''Where is the first/main branch and how far down should it go''? If you're like the most of us it will be the second. It's not surprising because that's basically how we're all taught or learn. The problem as I see it is that once we are in this comfortable mode we get suck in it - sometimes forever. It then becomes very difficult to look at things with a fresh mind. It is almost as if we need to throw out everything we know and begin as if it's the first time....but not quite!....More on that later.

Is styling a tree like this wrong? No I don't think you can say any form of art is wrong. However I do believe there is good art and bad art and probably everything in between. It is, or should be, a personal choice. However sometimes the choice is made for us by someone who ''knows better''.
We cannot really criticise the beginner. Mostly they follow the directions of the various native and imported demonstrators who themselves usually follow the same rigid set of rules that were taught to them. They work in an almost instinctual manner. The result of this can only be more of the same. Is all this really important? Depends on how you look at. To some evrything is as it should be and we only need to perfect what we have learned. My feeling is that if we are to push this particular art form to greater heights we should be constantly reevaluating what we are doing.

Many would have heard or read John Naka's cleaver adage; ''Don't make the tree look like a bonsai, make the bonsai look like a tree'' There is a lot to be gained from contemplating that simple statement and I agree with it more and more. Unfortunately from what I've seen, Naka did not practice what he preached. That is completely understandable. After you have shaped countless dozens of trees in a particular way, breaking new ground requires a lot of thought and contemplation. The reason is that we automatically visualise a bonsai in the material and promptly go about bringing out. Preferably in as short a time as possible! And the tree we visualise is usually exactly the same as a handful of forms already burned into our minds. Trying to visualise a true - sometimes more abstract - natural tree form, leaves us totally lost.

I should also acknowledge Walter Pall for his unending quest to convince the general bonsai comminity that we should as much as possible consider approaching bonsai design in a more natural way. I disagree with his attemps to classify bonsai according to style and I think his examples on another forum only serve to demonstrate how confused and highly subjective that particular endeavor is. He uses the word ''naturalistic'' to illustrate his points and as much as I dislike to categorize it is a useful description in this discussion.

So let's look at some pics. The first time I thought about this subject was in 2002 after seeing a picture of a Western Juniper in Thomas Pakenam's ''Remakable trees of the world''. A dwarfed tree in Yosemite National Park. A ''broom style'' Juniper! What a concept! This would make an outstanding bonsai but who would dream of doing it!?
002.JPG
Then after looking at some pics of natural growing scots pines I thought the same.
Most of the scots pine bonsai I have seen look like bonsai and to be precise, they look like Japanese White or Black Pine bonsai. Nothing really like the natural tree. I have read that some practitioners say that bonsai have nothing to do with trees. In one way it is true that making a bonsai an exact copy of a natural tree does not work due to the scale factor. A feature that may be appealing in a full sized tree can be a real eyesore when brought down to the scale of a bonsai. With this in mind, I believe there is a ''sweet middle ground'' to be discovered where we can take the great and wild natural feature of the real tree, remove what does not work and incorporate this into our bonsai.

Scots Pine bonsai
s1.JPG
s2.JPG
s3.JPG
s4.JPG

Scots pine trees
t1.JPG
t2.JPG
t4.JPG
t5.JPG
The same could be said of all kinds of species. Natives included. Well that should be enough to get the ball rolling. I've got to go water!! :palm:
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Last edited by treeman on October 16th, 2015, 4:39 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Bonsai design

Post by Piscineidiot »

I suspect the same is true of almost any artform.

Take painting for example: There are some general elements that can be used to assess how 'good' a piece of art/design is

Line
Shape
Form
Value
Space
Color
Texture

That however, doesn't stop people from critiquing how good a surrealist, impressionist, or cubist someone is.

The issue with that, is that those who do not neatly fit into a 'style' are typically reviled as being 'bad' cubists, impressionists etc.

The artist might very well have been working towards their own style, or perhaps, their personal aesthetics are a bit of a mash-up of different styles.

Doesn't make necessarily make the art bad, it just defies categorisation, which tends to upset people.

Now, take a tree.

A wild tree gives not a toss whether it is neat, or aesthetically pleasing, and its growth is pretty much dictated by genetics and its environment.

We, as bonsai people however, tend to give a toss.

I think the sticking point is when we try and categorise trees according to what we know, or what we strive for (it's just the human psyche at work) - we LIKE to be able to assign a label to something so we can either refer to it later, or avoid it.

Ultimately, each bonsai is shaped by a combination of the artist's skills, the tree's genetics, the environment, and most importantly, whatever the bonsai artist wants the tree to look like.

Really, there is no 'better'. 'Better' is relative to what we each value.

Some value forms that adhere to tradition, others value forms that more closely adhere to nature, some value craft, some value intuition and the willingness to break rules to achieve something new. The list goes on, and will go on forever.

For me, I value craft, and refinement. It is what I look for in finished trees, and what I aspire to. However, I realise full well that is not necessarily the ONLY way to approach things, and I respect those who wish to grow their trees with other things in mind. I just personally, don't tend to enjoy un-refined trees that have indications of poor applications of craft, and will most certainly never buy one like that.

But, like I said. That's personal preference, and that's all that is - One man's opinion.

I think we all need to be more conscious of the fact that what we value at any point in time, is not necessarily what others value at the same point in time.

I see a lot of critiques on this site where people with more bonsai experience tell relatively new hobbyists that they should:

A) Have never bought that tree
B) Need to wait 10 years before that tree will become anything
C) Chop it back into nothing and wait 10 years

etc. etc.

While the 'expert' might feel the tree is too young to really push their skills or is unlikely to turn into something as magnificent as one of the trees in their own collection, the newbie might just be happy to learn how to prune, water, repot and ramify at this point.

So, LET THEM.

By all means, give them a nudge in the right direction, but don't expect everyone to adhere to the same AESTHETIC. I feel this particular aspect is a really limiting factor in the global bonsai community.

Anyway, rant over.

With respect,

Owen
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Re: Bonsai design

Post by Rory »

First off. Mike,.... 'you took the words right out of my mouth'

Well said Mike. I cannot critique anything you said. It is almost like you stole a thread from my mind.

When the bonsai community open their minds to the possibilities of a real tree in their hands, it will lift the veil on the limitless possibilities of natural beauty, rather than something contrived.
A lot of the bonsai that are styled like bonsai and not like trees are almost like a caricature on life. Though, what Mike is saying which is vastly important is that if you place a perceived idea of perfection - which is a bonsai - as your starting point, you are only ever going to create a refined bonsai.

A lamens example is, when you are wanting help styling a tree, and if you don't live near the tree, do you :
Google the word Eucalyptus tree....or be honest... do you Google the word Eucalyptus BONSAI tree. I never do the latter, because you will end up with an interpretation of an interpretation.

Fortunately for me because of where I live, when I start to style a tree, I go for a walk in the bush and ask the tree itself. Not literally (I'm not a nutjob). But I honestly couldn't even tell you where the first branch is formally 'supposed' to start. I don't care when someone tells me you can't have a branch coming straight out at the viewer first, or you can't have the tree leaning to you, or you need some basic up/left/side rule. It just seems like Mother nature is shaking her head thinking 'pretentious' (in my opinion). I see it as the community trying to place nature into a box. Now, for me, seeing a bonsai that literally looks like a tree, just makes me melt in my mind. The examples that Mike give simply speak for themselves. If you could have the wild versions of those Scotts pine as a scale bonsai, why on earth would you opt for the actual contrived bonsai versions. I hope people see the unbelievable immense power behind Mikes thread and what it can mean for your creativity. It is so easy, just ask the tree how it is styled, not a set of rules, nor a person.

I have never been taught the basic rules of structuring a bonsai, because when I have been attempted to be taught, I find I simply zone out. You could call me egotistical or unwilling to listen to a man-made perception of a tree, but for me I have never learnt nor listened when masters or experts have taught me the fundamentals on their styling basics.
Horticultural requirements : Yes, definitely
Tree styling : No

I have never warmed to a tree shaped like a bonsai, but don't get me wrong, I can pour my heart out to the work behind creating it of course.

Mike, I cannot agree more, and I will end this addition to your thread with.....

You don't need someone to tell you how to style a tree. A real tree growing in the wild will tell you.
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Re: Bonsai design

Post by kcpoole »

Interesting discussion and I challenge anyone to go and create as a bonsai, an exact scale Replica of your average trees in nature and see whether they look any good or not.

Take the scots pine as Treeman suggests and lets have a look at a few in nature for the Geety images collection here
http://www.gettyimages.com.au/photos/sc ... ots%20pine


This one in the Scottish highlands looks lovely. someone wanna replicate it exactly in a pot and see the result?
http://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/ph ... /469023313

Or how about this one ?
http://www.gettyimages.com.au/detail/ph ... /146574342

Did a little virt of this one to blot out the background clutter ( Decided to save both trees from the image)
Scots pine getty images.jpg
Scots pine getty images2.jpg
Do the same with any tree and see what they look like?
Don't just talk about do it and see what they turn out like.

The biggest thing I note about the OP, is that it is heavy on the criticism and shows some examples of what is bad, but where is the photos of trees that highlight what you actually mean? :lost:
The old adage of a picture is better than 1000 words in very much the truth in the context of this discussion

In looking again, in the second last picture of the OP, those 2 trees both to me look quite similar the profile of the JBP you posted up further.

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Re: Bonsai design

Post by kcpoole »

Rory wrote: I have never been taught the basic rules of structuring a bonsai, because when I have been attempted to be taught, I find I simply zone out. You could call me egotistical or unwilling to listen to a man-made perception of a tree, but for me I have never learnt nor listened when masters or experts have taught me the fundamentals on their styling basics.
Ahh the Rules arise again!
FWIW, although (i believe) they have never been quantified as such, have been developed in Japan to provide a framework to use to develop trees that are well proportioned and look balanced.
No one has ever said ( as far as I am aware), that they are hard and fast and if not adhered to will disqualify our trees from being called Bonsai.
Many good practitioners of Bonsai know themand use them to their advantage, but are quite happy to bend and or break them, if the tree tells them to.

Knowing what they are and how to apply them to create "ccokie cutter" bonsai can also benefit just about any tree.

Do not confuse the fad of Manicuring a tree to just about death, with applying the "rules" to benefit the individual tree and composition

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Re: Bonsai design

Post by Pup »

Japan =Bonsai

China+ Penjing

The west Miniature trees+ rules.
I have spoken with people whom have served full apprentices in Japan. When they were asked about their time all said they learned by watching not by rules( westerners wanted them).

All designs by Man will show his hand, so what pleases you after all it is your tree. I get, that most trees in pots that are deemed Bonsai pots.
Are not all Bonsai some are Penjing.
Some are just and always will be sticks in pots. There are people out there making a living :palm: out of them.

Designed by whom ever. Just enjoy, what I have found in this hobby is most things get over analysed, be it fertilising, watering pruning pest treatment soil mixes.

My :2c: for what it is worth.
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Bonsai design

Post by Jow »

Interesting topic Mike.

You have to probably first ask the question of what is bonsai trying to achieve?

Is it about creating scale replicas?
Is it about expressing a species natural traits?
Is it art or craft or horticulture?
Is it simply a medium like paint is to a painter?

I tend to think the later.

If you look at top landscape paintings in any gallery as an example you will see a huge range of ways that 'landscape' is interpreted through paint.

You get photo realism with every leaf painted to expressionism that uses large brush strokes to approximate the 'feel' of the landscape to colour fields like Mark Rothko whom uses large squares of colour to suggest a totally abstracted interpretation of the horizon.

There are of course many other ways landscape is explored in art but the above are just some examples. You can see these types of examples all hung in the same galleries and depending on the artist etc are arguably as financially and culturally valuable as one another.

Is one approach/style better than the other?

No. It comes down to what speaks to the viewer and I think this is the same with bonsai. Even simply within Japan there are very detailed bonsai that look like shrunken forest trees but also bonsai that represent a more abstract 'feel' of what makes up a tree and then there are bonsai that are purely interesting sculptural form.

Is any one approach better than the other?

What I think is most important when designing bonsai ( be that in abstract or realistic means) is that the decisions that go into each tree are considered.

If you can justify your approach one way or the other and there are reasons behind the styling then I think that the bonsai is justifiable as art. Whether people like and or react well and if it is good art is another matter.

Joe
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Re: Bonsai design

Post by matlea »

As ken said the 'rules' are only a guide. I can draw a parallel with architecture where the gov. In nsw have set up a series of design guidelines - or commonly referred to as 'rules of thumb'. They are there based on good principles and set a framework, If you understand the intent of these guidelines you are able to go beyond these and where appropriate ignore them...with justification. The real problem is some people / bodies treat these 'rules of thumb' as 'rules'.... Most likely due to either a lack of understanding or to make their life easier (don't get me started!)
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Re: Bonsai design

Post by bodhidharma »

A tree in Nature grows without the hand of man and a Bonsai grows because of the hand of man. There is the difference! If we took a tree and stuck it into a pot and let it grow naturally we would have a tangled mess within a year. It would be natural but ugly to look at. As Ken stated, if you take any of the trees pictured and stuck them into a pot we would call them "Ugly" Bonsai. The whole idea of Bonsai is to develop "Clarity" in the tree and Nature only does that from a distance. Up close those trees are quite messy. In Japan they even prune their large trees and we look at them and marvel. But they have had the "hand of man" on them. I understand what Mike is trying to say and HUGELY respect Walter Pall's ideas and also am now understanding that every tree need not have their branches pulled down but "Natural styling" would be quite boring. I personally love the idea of Radical trees developed solely to illicit a response. Let us also understand this thread is one persons idea, albeit a good one, but their are many Artists out there with differing thoughts. The beauty of Bonsai is the compilation of all thoughts and differing opinions ad that is what makes it interesting. There will be many, many good ideas coming from this thread. Thanks for bringing it up Mike.
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Re: Bonsai design

Post by bodhidharma »

kcpoole wrote:Did a little virt of this one to blot out the background clutter ( Decided to save both trees from the image)
In the last photo Ken, which is a great example, which Bonsai Artist WOULDN'T cut or jin the top and work with the lower branch.
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Re: Bonsai design

Post by treeman »

Firstly, I'm not proposing that the way most bonsai are shaped is wrong or that I even know how to go about creating a naturalistic looking tree which is both unique AND actually works in a pot and in the scale of a bonsai. I mentioned that we need to keep in mind that we cannot (in most cases) simply make an exact copy of a natural tree which happens to appeal to us and expect it to work. That is precisely why many of the ''rules'' developed by the Japanese and others were created. Things like bar braches, crazy weird angles, branches emanating from the same place, and all other kinds of features which which would not even make us look twice, will completely break down visually, when presented in minature. I believe it is a question of scale that makes the difference. Something larger than ourselves has much more potency and commands more respect than something smaller than us. That is why I suggested finding a middle ground. Use the rules we know are important but reserve more freedom to create the unique. Since we cannot not hold countless natural images in our minds for future reference (as we do with more conventional designs) The only option would be to make several detailed sketches of the potential designs for the tree, settle on one and stick to it for the next decade. I think simply pruning and wiring aimlessly without a plan would ultimately fail.

@Ken, the last pic of the scots pine you posted is a good example of the type of thing I'm talking about. I would absolutely love to have a minature version of that tree. As long as the structural branches were clearly visible as they are in your tree. Designing such a tree though would require detailed planning right from the start. The bunjin type image would probably need a lot more manipulation to succeed. I will be posting many more examples later to help explain what I'm on about. There are plenty of great naturalistic bonsai out there (including many natives) There are also lots of ''bad'' trees to.

@Owen, You say you value refinment and do not value the unrefined. I'm totally with you but I hope you're not confusing refinment with uniformity. There is no reason we cannot have high levels of refinment in any work. I think creating a naturalistic pine (for example) would take just as much - and probably a lot more - detailed wiring and triming than would a pine with simple shelf like branching. It is not an excuse to produce substandard ''no rules'' type of work.

@Joe, To me the most important thing to achieve is beauty (in my own eyes of course) And to my eyes, it is most important that the piece has as little as possible obvious manipulations from the human hand. That, together with quality, is probably the most difficult thing to achieve! In that respect there are only a couple of my trees that I'm satisfied with (if that!!)
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Re: Bonsai design

Post by Andrew Legg »

Is the problem with bonsai in the West not perhaps the Google Syndrome? What's that I hear you ask? Remember in the old days when you did a Google search? It would come back with "125,486 results in 0.01678 seconds" written in the result page. And we all went "Ooooooooo, that's amazing". In short, particularly the younger generations who have grown up with this type of instant technology, we like to get a result quickly. Whether it's a Google search, a business profit etc etc. who has not sat in front of a pc frustrated as hell about the fact that it just took 7 seconds to open a :tounge: file, or 3 minutes to boot. It's sooooooo slow!

So how does that relate to bonsai? Well, it means we naturally want a quick result. To achieve this we feel the need to make everything as simple as possible, so in teaching bonsai and in learning, these rules suit us perfectly. This exacerbated by the fact that we only bother to take a few hours teaching before we turn a beginner loose to figure the rest out themselves. We don't have to think, we just cut these branches off here and then leave those left right back left right back ones and et toooo voila......BONSAI! Yihaaaaa. And we sit back and we look at our contrived little creation and give ourselves a self-proclaimed pat on the back. Our teacher says "good job", but both sit their and think "well that looks rubbish". :lost:

How do we do it better? I'm all for teaching the basics of horticulture, and then adding a layer of aesthetics on top of that. The tree design will follow from there guided by the species and material. Lets take a simple example. I can teach you to go left right back, or I can teach you that leaves need light for photosynthesis. So, now in the case of the former, all my trees wil just go left right back and I will end with cookie cutter bonsai, but in the latter I will evaluate the tree and place branches in the best aesthetic position that supports their horticultural needs. It means my design is freer, but I've achieved the same thing, a healthy tree.

Finally, different people have different tastes. There are those amongst us who like traditional Japanese bonsai and strive for highly refined trees, and other prefer the more loose slightly unkempt look of the Chinese punzai, and then others of us like to try use these trees to make art, and still more of us try to just enjoy growing little trees in pots. Problem is with some of the traditionalists who don't seem to be happy about us just calling them all 'bonsai'. In the strictest sense of course they are correct, except that language evolves. 'Bonsai' has taken on a looser meaning now. Essentially in our western world for many of us it's a tree in a pot. Preferably one into which some thought and effort has gone into its creation.

Cheerio,

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Re: Bonsai design

Post by fossil finder »

Andrew Legg wrote:Is the problem with bonsai in the West not perhaps the Google Syndrome? What's that I hear you ask? Remember in the old days when you did a Google search? It would come back with "125,486 results in 0.01678 seconds" written in the result page. And we all went "Ooooooooo, that's amazing". In short, particularly the younger generations who have grown up with this type of instant technology, we like to get a result quickly. Whether it's a Google search, a business profit etc etc. who has not sat in front of a pc frustrated as hell about the fact that it just took 7 seconds to open a :tounge: file, or 3 minutes to boot. It's sooooooo slow!

So how does that relate to bonsai? Well, it means we naturally want a quick result. To achieve this we feel the need to make everything as simple as possible, so in teaching bonsai and in learning, these rules suit us perfectly. This exacerbated by the fact that we only bother to take a few hours teaching before we turn a beginner loose to figure the rest out themselves. We don't have to think, we just cut these branches off here and then leave those left right back left right back ones and et toooo voila......BONSAI! Yihaaaaa. And we sit back and we look at our contrived little creation and give ourselves a self-proclaimed pat on the back. Our teacher says "good job", but both sit their and think "well that looks rubbish". :lost:

How do we do it better? I'm all for teaching the basics of horticulture, and then adding a layer of aesthetics on top of that. The tree design will follow from there guided by the species and material. Lets take a simple example. I can teach you to go left right back, or I can teach you that leaves need light for photosynthesis. So, now in the case of the former, all my trees wil just go left right back and I will end with cookie cutter bonsai, but in the latter I will evaluate the tree and place branches in the best aesthetic position that supports their horticultural needs. It means my design is freer, but I've achieved the same thing, a healthy tree.

Finally, different people have different tastes. There are those amongst us who like traditional Japanese bonsai and strive for highly refined trees, and other prefer the more loose slightly unkempt look of the Chinese punzai, and then others of us like to try use these trees to make art, and still more of us try to just enjoy growing little trees in pots. Problem is with some of the traditionalists who don't seem to be happy about us just calling them all 'bonsai'. In the strictest sense of course they are correct, except that language evolves. 'Bonsai' has taken on a looser meaning now. Essentially in our western world for many of us it's a tree in a pot. Preferably one into which some thought and effort has gone into its creation.

Cheerio,

Andrew
1 The common factors in great art is inherent simplicity of design (the essence) and ability to click without commentary.



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Nate.bonsai
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Re: Bonsai design

Post by Nate.bonsai »

I think that Jow's comments most approximate my own feelings on the topic. The question is one of style e.g the individual style of the bonsai artist, whether it be photo realism or abstract expressionism.

I can resonate with the essential thrust of the initial post - 'don't just copy the stock standard image, think for yourself and try and draw something out of the material'. That is the right way to approach any art. We can see great examples of certain bonsai artists or even communities/countries who develop a defined and unique style based on their own unique way of looking at the subject matter. However, we can't all be Picasso and stretch the boundaries and re-make the (bonsai) world in our own image. Some, in fact most, of us tend to gravitate to an established style or approach that resonates with our own view and interpretation.

On the issue of respecting the natural look and feel of a tree and, correspondingly, being critical of a bonsai that is styled completely contrary to how it would grow in nature, I say live and let live. Some examples will be jarring and some may be spectacular. After all, in sculpture some of the most amazing results are when the artist absolutely transcends the material e.g. a sculpture made from concrete which is incredibly delicate and gets the response 'wow, I didn't know that you could make concrete look or work like that'. I admire when someone can make us look at a tree and say the same.


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Re: Bonsai design

Post by wrcmad »

Rory wrote:A lot of the bonsai that are styled like bonsai and not like trees are almost like a caricature on life.
I reckon Rory nailed it. "... a caricature..."
I didn't understand how much the Japanese love caricature until I had visited Japan. It is a cultural part of their artistic expression and enjoyment.
From the flamboyant and outlandish to the simple and direct, even the more "basic" artwork can still be visually striking.
It tells a story. This type of art form demands great emotional involvement from the viewer.
It involves Japanese cultural nuances. Japan's history, language and worldview are woven into a great deal of caraciture and anime on many levels. Some shows are takeoffs on Japanese history or raid Japanese mythology for story ideas.
They surround themselves in it. Advertisements, billboards, signage, flyers, TV, computer games. They invented anime, and they even try to imitate it in fashion.
Have you ever walked through Shibuya?
carac1.jpg
carac2.jpg
Caricature aims to depict very discernible and identifiable features, by exaggerating them to make an image instantly recognisable, while not look much at all like that which it represents. Here is an example:
Here is a good example:
carac9.jpg
I think this caricature carries over into the Japanese bonsai art form. To use examples of how very discernible and identifiable characteristics are used to represent that which they are trying to depict, here are some examples with trees.:
carac4.jpg
carac5.jpg
carac6.jpg
carac7.jpg
carac8.jpg
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Last edited by wrcmad on October 17th, 2015, 10:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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