Bonsai design

[treeman]

Silhouette of an elm in a foggy Hyde Park London. Isn't this the kind of form we should try to capture in our deciduous bonsai??

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[Truth]

Treeman, i'd say a lot of people going for a clump style are emulating that tree's aesthetic. Here is just one example of a Japanese Maple I have saved on my computer.

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The thing is though, deciduous trees can be very variable in their growth habits. Whilst some branch off early and end up with multiple trunks, many also have a strong straight power trunk too. That's why it's difficult to make catch-all statements and lump trees together. I think individual species characteristics and cultivar traits need to be carefully considered.

[treeman]

Treeman, i'd say a lot of people going for a clump style are emulating that tree's aesthetic. Here is just one example of a Japanese Maple I have saved on my computer.

dsc_0276-x2.jpg

The thing is though, deciduous trees can be very variable in their growth habits. Whilst some branch off early and end up with multiple trunks, many also have a strong straight power trunk too. That's why it's difficult to make catch-all statements and lump trees together. I think individual species characteristics and cultivar traits need to be carefully considered.

Agreed Truth. Working with the tree rather than forcing itto do what WE want is IMO important. That way it will be easier to develop a more natural feel. Very nice Maple BTW.

So now have another look at the tree I posted a bit earlier,

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When we can look into a tree and not immediately see the work of the human hand....THAT's what I'm talking about!
A real masterpiece among masterpieces (a japanese maple I think) and something to aspire to even though we may never achieve it.

[Truth]

Hahaha nice one pulling the cheeky there, thought it was a little bit off when you didn't post the trunk of the tree!

With regards to your tree, i've always wondered how growers were able to get such a tight snaking curves the trunklines of their trees whilst also maintaining taper. Would it be through wiring young juvenile shoots into shape and growing out with many sacrifice branches, and then giving sufficient time to heal?

With Japanese Maples in particular, many critics often complain that too many people style them like pines, that is to say branches are all flat and horizontal. The counter to this movement is to have all branches reaching for the sky, like many observe with their Japanese Maples perhaps in gardens or locally. However this is misguiding as this is juvenile growth of JM. Being a very slow growing tree to reach full mature shape (30+ years) it is easy to see why people think the humble Japanese Maple always grows upwards. In fact, very large and old palmatum trees in Japan actually grow foliage pads that face downwards at the bottom of the tree, virtually horizontal around the middle and reach for the sky above that. I believe that characteristic is captured in the clump style tree I posted earlier.

However to say that bonsai are an exact miniature of large trees is also missing a large aspect of what makes bonsai unique. After all, wouldn't we get this with "dwarf" cultivars? Look at the fused root spread, i'd say you'd be very hard pressed to find that in nature. However this is merely exaggerated for artistic effect in bonsai, providing the illusion of age and grandeur. Also look at the terminal stems, they're red contrasting against the lighter colour of the trunk. You won't see this standing back from a full size tree, merely due to the scale of the size of trees vs the length of fresh yearly shoots and petioles. However the colour provides depth and adds to the aforementioned age and grandeur.

Whilst I agree that we should not be immediately able to see the work of the human hand (that is after all, one of the key aims of bonsai) it's important to note that the human hand is responsible for all the visual effects responsible for the "deceptive" nature of bonsai trees. Bonsai shouldn't be an exact image of an older tree, merely a snapshot and a stylisation of it.

[treeman]

Yes I agree with everything you have written Truth. That multi trunk maple I posted does not really need to necessarily represent a Japanese Maple. It is probably quite unlikely that you would come across such an example of this species in nature. It is more a stylized - as you put it - or an idealized deciduous tree with a very satisfiying and natural looking (not natural) aspect. The various characteristics of the different speices tend to manifest themselves in the bonsai sooner or later. Eg. You would be hard pressed to make an oak look like a maple regardless of what you do.

Bonsai is after all an illusion, not the real thing, so there is lots of room for personal interpretation. To me if the tree looks believable it's heading in the right direction. But more than that, I want it to possess a certain beauty as well. In other words, just because a tree is a product of nature it does not necessarily follow that it holds any charm in human eyes. There have been attempts by some people to create the ultimate ''untouched'' , ''wild'' specimens some of which fail miserably and end up looking like half dead ruins. Not the kind of thing I want to live with. I won't post examples of these kinds of things but they are on the web if you are interested. One has actually been called a masterpiece!

[Jow]

One has actually been called a masterpiece!

Now you've perked my interest.

[JaseH]

One has actually been called a masterpiece!

Now you've perked my interest.

I think I know which one you're talking about. Is it a group planting by chance?

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[bki]

I think i get your point clearly with your post on this page of your thread. i truly apologize that the words and thoughts on page 1 to page 5 went sporadic and i can say we never had a meeting of the minds maybe because someone tried to answer my questions that are obviously directed to you (but anyway thanks to his effort to answer).
I believe you and Robert Steven saw the same and here is a link of his demo/speech a few years ago https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4dBfnnRv6s
Video was a bit blurry but i think good enough to express his thought.

[treeman]

With regards to your tree, i've always wondered how growers were able to get such a tight snaking curves the trunklines of their trees whilst also maintaining taper. Would it be through wiring young juvenile shoots into shape and growing out with many sacrifice branches, and then giving sufficient time to heal?

Kind of. I believe the way this is achieved is pruning hard after allowing quite a lot of extention in the early development stage. The new shoot/s emerging from the cut usually come out at quite odd angles. These are then wired into the general direction of the main branch. Along with wiring, directional pruning the new shoot to a desirable bud can also be used. Eventually the cut heals and you have a sharp movement (correction) at that point. By repeating this you end up with the kind of snaking curves you mentioned. In other words the less length you allow the branch to add (or keep) each year, the more movement you end up with. The taper occurs naturally because the new shoot is always a year or two younger than the one behind it. Later on one branch of a fork might be completely removed to make room or whaterver. This creates more movement again.

[dansai]

Kind of. I believe the way this is achieved is pruning hard after allowing quite a lot of extention in the early development stage. The new shoot/s emerging from the cut usually come out at quite odd angles. These are then wired into the general direction of the main branch. Along with wiring, directional pruning the new shoot to a desirable bud can also be used. Eventually the cut heals and you have a sharp movement (correction) at that point. By repeating this you end up with the kind of snaking curves you mentioned. In other words the less length you allow the branch to add (or keep) each year, the more movement you end up with.

So no instant bonsai then. Just many years of patient work with a goal in mind and a plan to suit. Is it any wonder that some of the most prized Bonsai are grown for generations.

I know you touched on this before Mike, when talking about us learning from demonstrators and workshops. There is a need to create something by the end of the session. This is probably why pines and junipers are used so often in demostrations. Good rough stock can make an good image by the end of the session, whereas deciduous trees there may be a few cuts, a little bit of wire and a tree that still needs many years of work to create an image.

[treeman]

whereas deciduous trees there may be a few cuts, a little bit of wire and a tree that still needs many years of work to create an image.

Spot on dansai. Exactly the same for most natives too I would think?

[wrcmad]

Coincidentally, Ryan Neil seems to have addressed this recently.
I think his answer may satisfy both sides of this discussion @10:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... -PJM#t=633

[treeman]

Coincidentally, Ryan Neil seems to have addressed this recently.
I think his answer may satisfy both sides of this discussion @10:30

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=p ... -PJM#t=633

Thanks for posting this wrcmad. What great material! Well styled and good result. I'm happy that Ryan mentioned the subject of natural v ''bonsai'' styling. It is very true that the line can be somewhat blurred when considering the design of the material in front of you. I recently did a workshop with Mauro and we ended up styling the tree (a scots pine) in a very classical stlye. There was really no better option with that tree as I had started training it in the ground with a view toward the classical style right from the start.
Although Ryan is obviously aware of the debate, I notice he took the option of styling in a very traditional way and ended up with with a tree of very good quality yet once again tamed and ''Japanese''. I believe there is a very valid reason for this. The pressure to deliver when you have an audience and a very strong expectation for the result to be more or less a completed specimen and that a more wild, natural and abstract design requires more time, contemplation and probably returning to the tree again and again to add more elements over time to achieve what you're looking for. In other words probably not possible during a demo. However, I don't see the reason why such a design could not be started during a demo along with a detailed plan and artisic illustration to help people visualize the final goal.
I think it's a bit of a pity this great material ended up rather civilized and domesitcated. These demos are always great fun to watch but I'm starting to see no difference in the approach between one and the next so I'm beginning to view their value as learning opprtunities as having reached their peak.

[treeman]

I urge everyone to read this excellent website by Andy Rutledge - it does an excellent job of explaining artistic guidelines of bonsai:

http://www.andyrutledge.com/book/index.html

I finally found time to read this JaseH. Thanks. I particularly like Chapter 6.

[treeman]

I was looking up Pinus tabulaeformis and found these images. Surely they could be the basis of a new, fresh approach to pine bonsai design? It would obviously take more planing rather than just shaping and wiring by instinct but they would be unique for sure!

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This is a Red I think

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