Where to chop...

[Boics]

Greetings, I received this nice Zelkova around a year ago as a gift.
In my opinion it has FAR too many branches and is a bit of a mess...

In particular it appears that the previous owner was likely developing a new and lower apex.
Upon careful consideration I am of the belief that a lower chop is indeed the way forward to remove clutter at the top of the tree.
As you can see the two apex choices are intertwined and not exactly attractive..

What do the critics think? Is the lower chop the way forward or should I lose the lower apex instead?

Advice is most welcome..
Been playing around with Bonsai for many years but I have learned in recent times that I am merely a newbie.
(Reminds me that I should change my "Bonsai age!").

[MoGanic]

Hey there,

I had a chinese elm like this... was going no where but the crown made a nice variation on a broom so I have applied a layer on the top of the tree. The bottom will be shoved deeeeeeeeeeep in the ground in a corner to think about what it's done and where it wants to go and meanwhile, the nice little shohin variation on a broom style will be developed further.

I think if you layer about 1/3 up the tree you will have an interesting semi cascade option on the main tree.

Alternatively, you can chop.. but there really isn't much interest from the 1st third up...

-Mo

[Boics]

Jeepers Mo..

That is a bit harsh but constructive nonetheless!

Certainly hadn't considered that as an option and due to the fact the tree was given as a gift....
I'm not exactly comfortable with just chopping it in near too half!

Yes it's not the most mind blowing style but it's actually not a bad tree upon closer inspection and in my opinion just needs a bit of thickening and maturing.
A few less branches is definitely on the cards as it is a bit of a cluttered mess with branches hanging off everywhere!
Also the photo's and time of year don't do it the greatest justice either (bits and pieces of fallen flowers, leaf buds open and closed)..

[kcpoole]

You are right it is a bit of a mess.
Does it have a definite front by looking at the Nebari and trunk? If so then start with that adn look at the rest of the tree. Clean out any crossing branches and one going the wrong way for sure.

Reappraise what you have left to decide whether to reduce the tree or not.

The trunk look like it has little taper from the bottom to apex section, so maybe a chop is in order? Look at the top section and is there a smaller tree in there ? most likely yes then consider a layer to utilze the top then regrow a new apex on the base section.

Maybe if the top 1/3 was a layered off, does the bottom make a nice tree with a new top?

Ken

[Boics]

Good advise ken.

The tree has so much going on that it is hard to think straight.
I've never seen the tree in full leaf as yet so I'll be interested as to how this looks.

Regarding layering options as much as I feel this is sage advise..
Within close quarters I may have to remove more branches and structure than I'd ideally like.

To confirm.

Layer after all leaves are out?
Is branch pruning ok at any time?

Thanks,

[kcpoole]

Yep you can remove branches when you like, and layer in Spring when pushing growth

Ken

[Boics]

So bit of an update.

Apex 2 ended up coming off and I've tried to salvage this as a hard wood Shohin cutting.
Haven't given up on it yet but it does look like it's struggling a little.

I went to town on most of the overlapping and excess branches and will look to ramify and thicken up those that need it.
Admittedly some branches are a little over and under done!

I've also been lucky to have a few new shoots/branches pop up exactly where I needed them so these will be nurtured to improve size.

I'm hoping to strike a few smaller cuttings that I have taken from this tree as well.
With a bit of luck I'll be able to graft these to improve the lacklustre Nebari.

P.S. Ugly pot too but that can wait till next season.

[Boics]

I hated the previous pot and hate the new pot almost as much!

I actually tried to buy a pot for this and found one that I really liked but alas it is far too big.
I really would like a shallow(ish) oval put in a light blue for this tree.
If anyone has one on hand that would like to part with I'd be interested in purchasing?
Let me know.

Anyway this tree suffered really badly last year with those darned leafhoppers.
Confidor and weather conditions this year seem to be keeping these little buggers at bay which is great.

So this is what it looks like now and I'm happy with where it is going.
In winter I'm sure it will look more attractive than years before with some better branch arrangements and ramification.

Also considering defoliation this year too as I'd love to see it with some smaller leaves before autumn.
Happy for comments, suggestions as always.

[Boics]

So here is this tree now in it's 3rd pot!!
I had this commissioned from the Happy Potter and was most satisfied with the whole journey to say the least.
Very professional service and top quality work.

Might consider the drastic air layer option when the leaves come off or might just work on ramification.

It's been lovely to be able to keep the damn bugs that plagued this tree at bay this year to enjoy some autumn colour.
I didn't defoliate this year either as the tree didn't see anywhere near as vigorous as the last.

[Moraceae]

Hey Boics,

Nice tree, much nicer pot and nice colour!
I really think your new pot compliments your tree a lot more than the others, will be nice to see it in its new pot wearing its green coat too

Cheers,
Rob

[bodhidharma]

Excellent, it has changed a lot. Zel's respond VERY well to defoliation and you can push them quite hard. A good rewire this Winter then defol in very early Summer and adjust the wiring and you will have a very different tree the following year.

[Boics]

Here it is now after it's dropped all it's leaves.
I've attempted to compliment the display with another little Shohin Zelkova that is yet to drop all it's leaves.

I like the way the larger tree is progressing and was pleasantly surprised with the improved winter silhouette.
A number of branches must go and I will shorten several unnecessary lengths in a bid to improve ramification.
Then I will thoroughly rewire all the remaining branches to improve placement and direction.

After next season (or the season after) I might seriously consider the air layer option.

To be honest I'm more keen on a ground layer as now that I inspect the tree more closely the Nebari (or lack of) is what disappoints me the most.

[Boics]

Gave this a defoliation and trim back to 1 or two leaves this evening...
Also cut back some overzealous branches.

I am yet to defoliate this tree so will be interested to see how it responds.

I've left much of the inner weaker leaves.
Should I remove all of these as well or not bother?

[fredman]

Just read through this thread now. Very impressed what you have done with this tree. It sits beautiful in this coloured pot.
A question... You said you treated apex two as a hardwood cutting. Did you just dip it in hormone and planted it? If so that says a lot. I didn't realise Zelkova is that easy to propagate from cuttings (any specific after care?) It looks like a thickish branch that. How is it doing lately?

[kcpoole]

Nice tree developing there.
Ramification time now.

let the new shoots grow to 4-5, leaves then cut back to just 2or 3. Rinse and repeat.

Ken