Black Pine (?) Help

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MountainFrost
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Black Pine (?) Help

Post by MountainFrost »

I have had this Black Pine for about a month, I have some idea of what I want to do with it but need help deciding. My idea involves small and condensed needles but I have no idea how I can achieve it (please let me know how) , right now the needles are long and messy which I hate. If you have any alternate ideas please please please let me know about them.

This is what the tree first looked like
IMG_1072.jpg
After a tiny bit of cleaning up
IMG_8882 2.jpg
I want it to look something similar to this, I know the top looks a bit large due to my terrible photoshop skills, but I really need some different ideas if you think it will look better.
FullSizeRender.jpg
Thank you!!!
Sorry if I posted in the wrong spot.
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Last edited by MountainFrost on November 12th, 2016, 1:10 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Black Pine (?) Help

Post by Daluke »

Excuse my crude depiction, but I'd be leaving the stuff not in black
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Re: Black Pine (?) Help

Post by shibui »

Getting short needles and condensed growth will take a couple of years to achieve.
You have taken the first step and pruned it all back to the lowest needles. New buds should grow from those needles you have left but will probably still be pretty vigorous.
In autumn you can start pine maintenance schedule. By then you should have new shoots opened. If there are bunches of shoots cut larger ones until there are only 2 at any place. Also pluck or cut off all old needles and pull off some of the new needles so that all shoots have similar amount of needles so that strong shoots only have the same energy as weaker ones.
The following spring new buds will grow and open out. Some will be really strong but let them all grow until mid December then cut all completely off. Just leave a tiny stub of each new shoot. By January there will be lots of new buds growing and they should be smaller and have shorter needles.
Repeat maintenance schedule each year and growth will become more compact each time.
December: cut off all new shoots
Autumn: thin out new shoots leaving just 2 at any point. Remove stronger shoots from strong areas and weaker shoots from weak places to balance vigour. Pluck old needles and reduce new needles to 6-8 pairs on each shoot.

There are some variations to the process but choose one method and stick with it for a few years to see results. Search for other threads with pine maintenance to find more info.
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Re: Black Pine (?) Help

Post by MountainFrost »

shibui wrote:Getting short needles and condensed growth will take a couple of years to achieve.
You have taken the first step and pruned it all back to the lowest needles. New buds should grow from those needles you have left but will probably still be pretty vigorous.
In autumn you can start pine maintenance schedule. By then you should have new shoots opened. If there are bunches of shoots cut larger ones until there are only 2 at any place. Also pluck or cut off all old needles and pull off some of the new needles so that all shoots have similar amount of needles so that strong shoots only have the same energy as weaker ones.
The following spring new buds will grow and open out. Some will be really strong but let them all grow until mid December then cut all completely off. Just leave a tiny stub of each new shoot. By January there will be lots of new buds growing and they should be smaller and have shorter needles.
Repeat maintenance schedule each year and growth will become more compact each time.
December: cut off all new shoots
Autumn: thin out new shoots leaving just 2 at any point. Remove stronger shoots from strong areas and weaker shoots from weak places to balance vigour. Pluck old needles and reduce new needles to 6-8 pairs on each shoot.

There are some variations to the process but choose one method and stick with it for a few years to see results. Search for other threads with pine maintenance to find more info.
Thank you, I have a few questions and I want to calrify, that I have already taken the first step by removing the lower needles (do I remove all the new shoots this december?), and that I start the process in Autumn (next year) where I remove the remaining old needles and any excess new shoots. Then in December I cut all the new buds from spring and leave a stub and they I repeat. Is this correct? Thanks
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Re: Black Pine (?) Help

Post by Daluke »

It depends on what you are trying to achieve. Development (for newish trees) vs Ramification (for older trees).

If you want a fat trunk remove all lower thick branches and leave a leader to run at the top. You will get backbudding because of the increased traffic between the roots and the top.

If you want ramification (you are happy with trunk and branch placement) needle cut to 8 - 10 pairs of needles everywhere. This is done at any time. Leave old and new needles. The young aren't good at photosynthesising and the old show them how it's done. This tells the roots of the tree to send the energy equally to every clump of needles. If you don't do this, the tree will send its energy to the strongest points on the tree (the top). If it was the stock market, the tree invests its money into the good performers leaving the weak to fail. We want to even the playing field.

Your candles shouldn't be touched until the new growth has hardened off. This is generally in the middle of summer time, but every tree is different. Some harden off early or late. If you cut down your candles before they open you are zapping the tree of its energy which is now almost entirely concentrated in the candles. Once the growth of the candles has hardened off, the energy is now distributed away so you can cut.

Cut to about 5mm from the base of the candle and you will find that new buds soon develop.if you cut right to the base you remove the ability to produce buds. As the buds swell (before they elongate into candles) remove all but two buds.

If you continue this process you'll get nicely ramified pads.

You should feed heavily throughout the year but stop about a month before you intend to cut down the candles to help promote small bud and needle size.

There is no definitive guide with pines because all trees are different - the only definite is that if you cut off candles before the middle of summer you are zapping it and setting yourself to fail.
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Re: Black Pine (?) Help

Post by MountainFrost »

Daluke wrote:It depends on what you are trying to achieve. Development (for newish trees) vs Ramification (for older trees).

If you want a fat trunk remove all lower thick branches and leave a leader to run at the top. You will get backbudding because of the increased traffic between the roots and the top.

If you want ramification (you are happy with trunk and branch placement) needle cut to 8 - 10 pairs of needles everywhere. This is done at any time. Leave old and new needles. The young aren't good at photosynthesising and the old show them how it's done. This tells the roots of the tree to send the energy equally to every clump of needles. If you don't do this, the tree will send its energy to the strongest points on the tree (the top). If it was the stock market, the tree invests its money into the good performers leaving the weak to fail. We want to even the playing field.

Your candles shouldn't be touched until the new growth has hardened off. This is generally in the middle of summer time, but every tree is different. Some harden off early or late. If you cut down your candles before they open you are zapping the tree of its energy which is now almost entirely concentrated in the candles. Once the growth of the candles has hardened off, the energy is now distributed away so you can cut.

Cut to about 5mm from the base of the candle and you will find that new buds soon develop.if you cut right to the base you remove the ability to produce buds. As the buds swell (before they elongate into candles) remove all but two buds.

If you continue this process you'll get nicely ramified pads.

You should feed heavily throughout the year but stop about a month before you intend to cut down the candles to help promote small bud and needle size.

There is no definitive guide with pines because all trees are different - the only definite is that if you cut off candles before the middle of summer you are zapping it and setting yourself to fail.
Thank you, very helpful advice. Just have a question about feeding, i'm very new to feeding so I don't know when do feed or what type to use for pines. Thank you.
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Re: Black Pine (?) Help

Post by kcpoole »

MountainFrost wrote:
Thank you, very helpful advice. Just have a question about feeding, i'm very new to feeding so I don't know when do feed or what type to use for pines. Thank you.
What ever you have handy will do, but do it often.

I use Neutrog pellets on the surface and Liquid fertiliser every 2 weeks or so.

Ken
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Re: Black Pine (?) Help

Post by shibui »

Thank you, I have a few questions and I want to calrify, that I have already taken the first step by removing the lower needles (do I remove all the new shoots this december?), and that I start the process in Autumn (next year) where I remove the remaining old needles and any excess new shoots. Then in December I cut all the new buds from spring and leave a stub and they I repeat. Is this correct? Thanks
In your picture I can see that the ends of all the branches have been cut recently so you should not cut again this season I hope your tree will grow new shoots in a few weeks but they will not be mature enough to cut this summer. That's why I have started your program with needle reduction and thin out new shoots this coming autumn (say March 2017) this time. Decandling (removing all the new spring shoots) will be December 2017.

I have assumed you want to start ramification and needle reduction for this tree already. As Daluke pointed out, if you want your tree to get fatter or bigger there are better ways for that stage.
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Re: Black Pine (?) Help

Post by MountainFrost »

Daluke wrote:Excuse my crude depiction, but I'd be leaving the stuff not in black
It's a good idea, but i'm not sure want to make it that small :/
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Re: Black Pine (?) Help

Post by MountainFrost »

shibui wrote:
Thank you, I have a few questions and I want to calrify, that I have already taken the first step by removing the lower needles (do I remove all the new shoots this december?), and that I start the process in Autumn (next year) where I remove the remaining old needles and any excess new shoots. Then in December I cut all the new buds from spring and leave a stub and they I repeat. Is this correct? Thanks
In your picture I can see that the ends of all the branches have been cut recently so you should not cut again this season I hope your tree will grow new shoots in a few weeks but they will not be mature enough to cut this summer. That's why I have started your program with needle reduction and thin out new shoots this coming autumn (say March 2017) this time. Decandling (removing all the new spring shoots) will be December 2017.

I have assumed you want to start ramification and needle reduction for this tree already. As Daluke pointed out, if you want your tree to get fatter or bigger there are better ways for that stage.
I do want to start ramification, do you think the tree would look better with a larger trunk?
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Re: Black Pine (?) Help

Post by shibui »

You can see the size of the trunk but we can only guess because we don't know what size the pot is and there is no other visual scale.
Some people like a very thick trunk to height ratio, others prefer a more delicate, thinner tree. Only you can tell what sort of tree you prefer so you need to make that decision. I think I would probably be happy to start ramification on that tree. Thicker is not always better.
It will take a few years to develop good ramification from this and the trunk and branches will continue to thicken while that happens, just a little slower than if you allow it to grow freely.
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