Shaping a Forest Setting

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BenLangers7
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Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by BenLangers7 »

Hi all, I'm looking for some hints in putting together my first forest setting. I have recently picked up a group of 7 small Ficus Macrocarpa (ranging in height from about 200 to 400 mm, all with a trunk width at base of around 15-20 mm). They have been growing in a couple of training pots since 2017 and mostly have a slight "S" bend shape that I thought might work as a windswept scene on the edge of a cliff or hill.

My main question is: Is there any way to create a stable hill shape beyond simply building up dirt at one end of a pot? Should I build a shape underneath the dirt with rock / bricks / shaped clay etc? Not sure how to create the basic terrain! Any other advice or suggestions would also be welcome.

Here are two pictures of the trees as they are currently potted:
Ficus Microcarpa 1_Mar 19.jpg
Ficus Microcarpa 2_Mar 19.jpg

And this is a rough sketch of my plan (apologies for the sideways view):
Ficus Microcarpa Forest Setting.jpg
In case it helps, here are pictures of each individual tree. As they are currently in shared training pots, I have just one angle of each, but I have tried to get as close to what I am thinking will be the front of each tree as possible. Some trees will obviously need branches removed from the left side (particularly 2 and 5), and will need to be planted with a lean to the left.

Tree 1:
Ficus Microcarpa Tree 1_Apr 19.jpg
Tree 2:
Ficus Microcarpa Tree 2_Apr 19.jpg
Tree 3:
Ficus Microcarpa Tree 3_Apr 19.jpg
Tree 4:
Ficus Microcarpa Tree 4_Apr 19.jpg
Tree 5:
Ficus Microcarpa Tree 5_Apr 19.jpg
Tree 6:
Ficus Microcarpa Tree 6_Apr 19.jpg
Tree 7:
Ficus Microcarpa Tree 7_Apr 19.jpg
Thanks in advance for any suggestions and advice!

Ben
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Last edited by BenLangers7 on April 14th, 2019, 11:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by shibui »

You should just be able to form the potting mix into the mound you are looking for. Eventually the roots will hold it all together. For a while you will definitely need to be careful with watering and probably keep replacing any soil that washes away but it will hold together. Moss or stones as a surface dressing will help stabilise the surface. building a shape under the mix will do nothing to hold the surface together and will take away valuable root space.
The rock idea may have some merit. I know that many ficus live in rocky terrain so why not use some rocks to create a landscape and use them to help retain the mix?

You have not included any indication of sizes for your trees or the planned forest though talk of bricks in the planting infers it may be quite large! You will need to take weight and size into account. How will you rotate the pot to ensure even light all round? How will it be repotted every few years?
The drawing seems to include lots of open space. Is that necessary? Maybe move the trees closer together and reduce overall size and the height of the hill and you could still have the basic feel without some of the problems.
I noted the drawing seems to have relatively even spacings between the tree trunks. We seem to have some innate need to space out things evenly but that's not how nature works. Please consider making your tree placement more random to mimic how they would grow naturally.
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by BenLangers7 »

Hi Shibui,

Thanks for all your advice. I have addressed a number of your comments, below, with further information and intentions - feel free to let me know if anything I am doing is wrong!

520 x 310 x 150
shibui wrote:You should just be able to form the potting mix into the mound you are looking for. Eventually the roots will hold it all together. For a while you will definitely need to be careful with watering and probably keep replacing any soil that washes away but it will hold together. Moss or stones as a surface dressing will help stabilise the surface. building a shape under the mix will do nothing to hold the surface together and will take away valuable root space. Thank you!

The rock idea may have some merit. I know that many ficus live in rocky terrain so why not use some rocks to create a landscape and use them to help retain the mix?Is there any special sort of preparation needed for rocks used in bonsai? I have tried to create a couple of root over rock styles before and have found the tree has always quickly died, so I am hesitant to do this again.

You have not included any indication of sizes for your trees or the planned forest though talk of bricks in the planting infers it may be quite large! You will need to take weight and size into account. How will you rotate the pot to ensure even light all round? The trees vary in height from about 200 mm to 400 mm with trunk diameter of 15 mm to 20 mm. I was planning at this stage to plant them in a rectangular tray that is 520 mm long, 310 mm wide and 150 mm high. This would obviously be a temporary measure to get them out of the two pots and into the right shape, and until I found a suitable bonsai pot (I would really like to move onto a flat/very shallow tray at some stage as I have seen these used and thought they looked great).

How will it be repotted every few years?I have absolutely no idea how to re-pot a forest setting. Any advice is welcome!

The drawing seems to include lots of open space. Is that necessary? Maybe move the trees closer together and reduce overall size and the height of the hill and you could still have the basic feel without some of the problems. I noted the drawing seems to have relatively even spacings between the tree trunks. We seem to have some innate need to space out things evenly but that's not how nature works. Please consider making your tree placement more random to mimic how they would grow naturally. All good ideas. Please excuse my sketching, I am aware that the spacing needs to be uneven and this has not really come through in my ordinary drawing. I put the space in the middle as I hae seen some forests split into two groups and liked the look of them, however the gap I have left in the drawing is probably far too large still. I just liked the idea of a little bit of separation.
Thanks again for your thoughts.
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by shibui »

There's no special preparation of rocks for bonsai. Some people soak beach rocks in fresh water to reduce any salt but generally use rocks as they come. There are a number of reasons you may have had previous difficulty with rocks - Rocks dry out much quicker than potting mix. trees planted on rock slabs and root over rock plantings always need more water because the porous rocks soak up water and radiate it into the air. You problems may have been related to root damage while positioning trees on the rocks. Dry rocks suck moisture from tender roots so I usually soak rocks before arranging roots for root over rock plantings. My suggestion for this group is just to use a few rocks to retain one edge of the mound of soil. The tree roots will eventually find the way there but won't actually be planted on the rocks. Sort of a retaining wall so the rocks would not need to be large or protrude much out of the soil.
520mm long is a good size - manageable in future but too small to contain a brick :tu:
Be a little careful of really shallow pots. I know they look good but they do dry out very quickly in our climate. Figs are tougher and may be able to cope but I've moved away from most really shallow pots to slightly deeper ones for the long term health of my bonsai.

Group bonsai are generally treated as a single unit for purposes of repotting. For a couple of years the trees can be repositioned but eventually the roots are so intertwined that it is almost impossible to remove individual trees. Normal repotting for a group is same as a single tree - cut around the edge of the group, cut some off the bottom, rake out some old mix, trim long and thick roots as necessary then put it back into the pot with fresh mix.

Pleased to hear you are aware of the need to avoid even spacing. It will be interesting to see how you manage to put them together. I've found most people really struggle with the practice even though they are aware of the concept. The break between the 2 clumps is a good idea and can add interest to the overall setting. The size of the tray will probably dictate how far apart the individual trunks can be and how much separation between the clumps. You will need to be aware that a space in the centre of a group may not be the best design feature - makes it difficult to decide where to look but see how your arrangement looks when you start putting it together. As mentioned, it is no problem to move trunks for several years after initial placement if you decide you don't like the first effort.
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by BenLangers7 »

Thanks Shibui - lots of good tips! Once I get it all planted I will post a photo for a critique.
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by MJL »

G'day BL7,

I am far from an expert in these Bonsai woods (pardon the pun) so please be listening to people with more experience - that said, I wrote this piece recently. (See the link below.) The content (and the comments by others) may assist your thinking.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=26734&p=264360&hili ... 6f#p264360

Cheers,

Mark

PS - If you want to learn from more of my mistakes - there are numerous threads on forest and group plantings that I have plastered across this forum in the last year or so - some of these planting are more successful than others; any of those might help you too. Again, as much in what not to do than what to do ... if that makes any sense. ;)
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by BenLangers7 »

Thanks Mark - I have read that thread and will work my way through the others. The more ideas I can get the better!
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by gnichols »

BenLangers7 wrote:Thanks Mark - I have read that thread and will work my way through the others. The more ideas I can get the better!
There was also a good clip on YouTube by Ryan Neil on tree placement for groups. I think it was a beech group he works through. As always with his stuff it is very detailed, interesting and explained very well. Found a link.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GP9hM9A6akg

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BenLangers7
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by BenLangers7 »

Forest Setting Prep 1.jpg
I never got back to posting a photo of the final planting on this forest setting, so here are (finally) some pictures. For those who are interested, this first one is the container I am initially using while the grouping develops, complete with some water holes and wiring to hold the trees in position. The screening on the left end is my attempt at providing a barrier to allow me to build up one end into a hill form.
Forest Setting Planting at 25Apr19.jpg
This is the final planting with 7 trees in place as at April 2019.
Forest Setting 4Oct19.jpg
And this is about 6 months later. When I first planted in April, I took some of the off-cuts and put them in a pot with rooting hormone. Some died but 4 survived, so I have now added these to the forest as "new growth" in some of the gaps so that I now have an 11 tree setting. The original trees have had a bit of a trim, particularly getting rid of a lot of the new growth on "wind" side of the cliff.
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BenLangers7
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by BenLangers7 »

By the way, any feedback or advice is welcome!
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by Gerard »

I remember about 10 years ago, visiting artist Hirotoshi Saitoh was assembling a group in a workshop. He had a very easy way to explain tree placement in terms of family relationships.
The first tree (biggest) was the father
Standing very close was the mother
Nearby were a couple of children
Slightly separated was the younger brother of the father which he called uncle
His wife aunt
and in this case a smaller family with one child cousin
They were all related in some way and the irregular spacing made perfect sense.
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by MJL »

Hey BL7,

A few thoughts ... [Caveat(s): I don't live in your climate nor do I have any ficus and I am learning like you. :) ]

I'd be aiming for a aerial roots raining down from each tree. I have a NZ Christmas Tree that creates aerial roots and because we don't have heaps of humidity where I live, I wrap the roots that I want to get to the ground in paper towel to keep 'em moist until they hit the ground and root accordingly. Perhaps further up north such methods are not required.

I use mounds a lot (others dislike them profusely). When I mound soil, I find it moss (or small/tiny stones) helps retain the shape and as long as there are no super steep sides. Indeed, in many cases just the potting mix will hold itself just take care when watering. You have mounded the soil aggressively on one side with a retaining wall. I am not sure what that means in future ... when and how will the retaining wall be remove? What type of pot do you intend to use in future? Perhaps a crescent shaped pot with a high side but I am not sure that would suit the overall design. In short, I reckon you can soften the mounds and take the wall away.

Regarding overall design ... perhaps it's windswept or perhaps it's trees simple following the decline in the landscape - based on your ideas thus far, I think the latter. I am the worst drawer on this forum (period) but here's where my head goes. (Yeah, I know - my artistic capabilities are boundless. :lol: )
IMG_6946.jpg
... those squiggly back lines are aerial roots!

Point being, there's something quite exciting and interesting about a potential forest of ficus with aerial roots - a long term project for sure but imagine the satisfaction if you were able to achieve that .... I hope all goes well.

And hey, I reckon a local club might be able to assist you better than a stray bloke from Melbourne with too much time on his hands. :roll:
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by BenLangers7 »

Hi MJL, thanks for the suggestions. For the record, I think you can see from my initial sketch at the top that you are way better at drawing than me! The idea was to get a windswept look on the edge of a cliff, hence the sharp incline in the soil. I probably need to cut back the branches on the "wind" side more aggressively at some stage but I wanted to let the planting settle a bit and make sure it was healthy before I did this. Re roots - do all ficus develop aerial roots? My Moreton Bay Figs seem to develop them very easily but I think these are a type of Microcarpa and I haven't seen any evidence of aerials yet. Ben
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by Raging Bull »

Hi Ben, that's an interesting task you've set yourself there. My solution to what to do with the high or cliff side of your planting later on would be to actually make it into a cliff. Go out and get some yamadori rocks (is there such a thing?) and build a small cliff as part of your setting. In the Gold Coast hinterland there are many areas where you can pick up pieces of shale for this purpose. Shale can be split into quite flat pieces very easily. Here's a sketch, not many trees in it but maybe it'll give you some ideas. I'm glad I didn't try to make my living as an artist :whistle:
Cheers, Frank
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BenLangers7
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Re: Shaping a Forest Setting

Post by BenLangers7 »

Thanks Frank - all ideas welcome. Shibui suggested adding some rocks to solidify the hill shape too, and it is definitely a good idea that I am considering. Any particular place in the hinterland you know of? Would be interested to have a look!
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