Ground growing

[SuperBonSaiyan]

In my experience digging heavy clay when it is wet is very difficult. The clay soil sticks to the shovel, your boots, everything. Then it is real hard to get the clay soil off the roots without breaking roots. Need to soak in water or use lots of water through the hose to wash it away. Clay grows good trees but difficult to work. Definitely add compost, gypsum or sand to clay soils to help open the structure a bit.
If the soil is easy to work when wet then it is not clay.

I have found that digging faster growing trees each winter is a great idea. As you say, treat each as a repot to cut and reposition roots to improve nebari.
I leave slower growing species for 2 years, sometimes longer. Pines and junipers are slower and the roots do not thicken and get hard so They can be left for 4-5 years at a time to thicken and are still easy to dig.

Yeah, definitely difficult to dig in the wet. The clay cakes onto everything.

That's where the colander & sand come into play. I'm going to cut /remove any roots in the clayanyway, so I can use the sand layer or, if that proves too difficult to run a saw through, I'll cut off at the outer holes of the colander.

At least that's the plan, we'll see how well it goes.

[Daluke]

Could you use a raised garden bed? Something with sides like treated pine that you can lift up and move when it’s tree dig time?

[SuperBonSaiyan]

Could you use a raised garden bed? Something with sides like treated pine that you can lift up and move when it’s tree dig time?

Yep that's the plan. Raised bed with sand in it, colander buried in that.

[tgooboon]

Here is a photo is my ground growing bed - recently renovated in the last couple weekends.

20230709_152855.jpg

It ended up double as tightly packed than I would have liked, but too much effort to extend it at this stage, so potentially might get a bit self shaded in the middle.

The Shimpaku in the bottom right has been in the ground 3 years, however the first 2 years barely grew as the bed was too wet. A year ago I raised the level by 100mm ish in that quarter of the bed and moved it (just a case of picking up the bag tearing a few fine roots and moving it) and it has started growing significantly faster the last year. As a result I have raised the whole bed to approx 100mm using cococoir as well as pinebark soil, and really just any left over soil / mix i had. The coco is very cheap which is why i used a fair bit of that.

The grow bags are very similar to your colander idea. I am using 3 gallon vivisun bags from ebay (approx $3 each) - I can post more photos if your interested in how i fill them with the. some bags are smaller but the 3 gallon ones are good as they are 240mm diameter which is narrow enough to get rood balls into bonsai pots in years to come.

[SuperBonSaiyan]

You should be able to find supplies of geo matting from Plumbing supply companies, I work for one and we stock it in 50 meter roles in various widths starting from 600mm to 2000 mm.

Geotex is definitely worth considering. Made mostly from recycled PET bottles and seems to last indefinitely, or at least a very long time.
Weeds will germinate on top with roots growing through but as a surface around a raised bed spraying or otherwise dealing with annual weeds should be no problem.
Not sure where the green shed gets supplies but we have a factory that makes similar in Albury.

Would either of you like to share the companies you know that supply geo-fabric? I'd prefer to support local businesses where possible.

I'm "almost" at the stage where I can lay down the geofabric (still building the shade structure at the moment), so I figure I might as well order it in.

Looking to buy 50m length x 3m width (or equivalent).

[PWC]

There should be a local Tradelink, Reece or local independent hardware store in your area that should be able to help. 2 mtr. widths are the widest I have seen. The product they sell is primarily for drain trenching to let water pass and prevent small particles to block drainage systems.

[tgooboon]

Hi SuperBonSaiyan

Did you end up getting an areas setup for field growing? Any photos or tips?

[SuperBonSaiyan]

Hi SuperBonSaiyan

Did you end up getting an areas setup for field growing? Any photos or tips?

Not yet, I wanted to get my shade structure up first and that's taken a lot longer than I expected. I think ground growing will begin next year, or I may set a few colanders into the ground in the coming weeks.

[Jan]

Is anyone "ground growing" in Wicking Beds?

I'm giving serious consideration to putting in another one for ground growing (existing wicking beds are spoken for for veg.). Could be the solution to getting some trunk size/ramification or wound healing in a shorter time frame for bonsai projects, always a consideration with advancing years.

I've been using Wicking beds for tender veg (lettuce, cucumber, tomatoes, Asian greens, strawberries) for quite a few years with great success in our often very dry (serious drought) climate. A very water-economical solution for veg while keeping plants roots in an evenly moist but not wet environment so can't see how it would not be the same for trees.

I came across the geotextile when researching Wicking beds and have used it, with stone (shale used for road base in our area) everywhere that I wanted to remain weed free (Made great veg garden and orchard paths). Water drains through freely but only the odd weed (wind blown seed) in the shale, easily removed due to shallow root system. It made a great, long lasting, "barrier" between the Ag-pipe/sand "water well" layer and the Soil layer in the wicking beds.

Thanks,

Jan.

[ACooke]

This is a really interesting thread. Thanks everyone.

A couple of questions which:

(I'm in Sydney, first and foremost)
I see lots of mention for using colanders for pines but not Elm, and lots of talk about how Elm can really run away root wise and be difficult to keep/pull back in to line. Is there a reason colanders aren't typically used for Elms, or are they and just weren't specifically noted?

Excuse my density - but is the reason colanders work well, aside from obviously some-what constraining the roots, that they don't allow roots larger than the holes in the colander to grow outside of the colander so for eg. a colander with few very large holes would work (in general) less-well than one with smaller holes - being that the few large holes would let fewer, large roots out than potentially more numerous smaller roots in the latter (just as an example to help me understand the purpose of colanders within soil).

Colanders or pond baskets? Same?


And as a bonus question. Is anyone growing anything outside of the common species that they'd recommend for considering?
I've got some JBP's, an Elm and likely a Juniper or two (not sure which type I'll go for, I current have a shimpaku and procumbens in training pots) I was going to throw in the "ground", but am constantly question what else I should grow - I like the thought of straying - but not too far - from the Pines, Junipers, Elms and Maples group. I'm not really sure what thought - I love a lot of the Ume type trees but they seem 'difficult' and what I really love is the delicate and ancient looking trunks and bark - likely not achievable any time soon, climate questions aside. There seems to simultaneously be both endless and constrained options haha - so is there anything anyone is, or wants to grow that they're really excited about?

Thanks !

[SuperBonSaiyan]

I've heard of people having success growing on the ground in fabric baskets, the roots seem to be able to grow through the bag and into the ground.

This makes me wonder: should I do a layer of geofabric at the bottom of my grow beds? It would keep most pests out while the roots are growing, but still allow drainage to prevent root rot.

I'm new to ground growing so if this sounds like a bad idea for any reason please let me know.

[shibui]

Geofabric in the base of the grow beds should not be detrimental but I'm not sure it will be any benefit either so probably just a waste of time and materials.

[SuperBonSaiyan]

Geofabric in the base of the grow beds should not be detrimental but I'm not sure it will be any benefit either so probably just a waste of time and materials.

I've dug into the ground in my yard before and there are a fair few curl grubs around. I was thinking to use the geofabric to prevent them migrating into the main rootball (raised section of the bed).

They'll likely still get onto the roots that escape the geofabric, but they're all sacrificial roots which will be cut off anyway.

Also keen to prevent ants (as much as I can) from farming aphids, I know there are heaps of ants down there as well.

[wrcmad]

Sorry for the late reply - missed this one over the break.

I see lots of mention for using colanders for pines but not Elm, and lots of talk about how Elm can really run away root wise and be difficult to keep/pull back in to line. Is there a reason colanders aren't typically used for Elms, or are they and just weren't specifically noted?

The ground growing methods for pines and elms are very different.
Pines are usually left in the ground for years, as it would be detrimental to lift them every year. So a colander acts as a physical barrier which tends to restrict the roots and help develop a shin.
Nebari is a development goal on an elm, so roots need to spread and run - a colander would hinder this. However, elms should be lifted every year to perform developmental root work, and to prevent run-away roots. Thus a colander would be pointless.

Excuse my density - but is the reason colanders work well, aside from obviously some-what constraining the roots, that they don't allow roots larger than the holes in the colander to grow outside of the colander

Sort of.
A few roots will still run, but the colander tends to contain most big roots. It just makes things easier when it comes time to finally dig.
The Japanese tend to not use colanders in the ground, but rather run a spade around the root ball perimeter every year as a bit of a root prune - same effect.

And as a bonus question. Is anyone growing anything outside of the common species that they'd recommend for considering?
I've got some JBP's, an Elm and likely a Juniper or two (not sure which type I'll go for, I current have a shimpaku and procumbens in training pots) I was going to throw in the "ground", but am constantly question what else I should grow - I like the thought of straying - but not too far - from the Pines, Junipers, Elms and Maples group.

Tridents.
If lifted every year and the nebari worked on properly, and enhanced with root grafting, the results are cracking.

[shibui]

I've dug into the ground in my yard before and there are a fair few curl grubs around. I was thinking to use the geofabric to prevent them migrating into the main rootball (raised section of the bed).

They'll likely still get onto the roots that escape the geofabric, but they're all sacrificial roots which will be cut off anyway.

Also keen to prevent ants (as much as I can) from farming aphids, I know there are heaps of ants down there as well.

I doubt the geofabric will help with any of those.
Curl grubs hatch from eggs laid by the adult beetles which can climb and fly. Even if existing grubs can't in from below the adults are likely to lay eggs in the raised bed sooner or later.
I get quite a few curl grubs when I dig my grow beds but they don't seem to be slowing growth of the trees. In pots where root run is restricted it's another story altogether.

Ants are very mobile and can climb the outside walls of the beds. Geofabric under will not stop them from doing whatever they like.