do we under fertilise??

[Greth]

Im using that for the simple reason that I won a large bucketful at a Herb Society meeting where the Neutrog rep was talking
Neutrog is also around the corner from here, maybe I can score a job there one day.
Hint for anyone organising meetings, some reps are wonderful at bringing along free samples. This lady brought sample bags of products for every member, as well as the large bags which were given to those who could answer questions after her talk.

With salt buildup and rainwater vs mains, my comments - rainwater will be far better than mains, other sources eg borewater be wary of salt content. With saltier water, you need to use an excess to flush away salt buildup. The rule of thumb given by my hort professor was 10% more than the holding capacity of the pot, holding capacity meaning the mix is thoroughly soaked, none draining out. For irrigation in fields excess water needs to be given to keep the salts moving down into the subsoil too. One of the reasons a good soak one a week for outdoor plants is better than a sprinkle a day.
The only advantage to mains water is that being chlorinated and so more sterile, it has less tendency to lead to fungal diseases, 'damping off' of seedlings, and those kinds of problems. Might be better to use for any superhumid areas where you are trying to germinate seed or strike cuttings. I don't have a choice, only have rainwater available, but I leave my seeds/cuttings in the open to compensate.
A 'tea' made by stewing wormwood in water for half an hour or so is meant to be the 'herbal way' of counteracting damping off, I have tried it with no particularly outstanding results, though it did make the house smell interesting..

[Bretts]

I always understood that washing out the salt was the way to go and It makes sense that a free draining mix would have less salt as it gets washed out more regular but the article states that a less free draining mix wil have less salt buildup because you don't water as often.
This has confused me! Yet it also makes some sense when you consider how salt and calcium build up in general.

[Jamie]

i think we flush out salt build ups no matter what as when we fertilise whether it is organic on not we are watering with fresh plain water all the time flushing the soil of these build up, in theory.

i can understand that certain sources of water like mains will have more of a content of salts, not to mention chemicals like chlorine and fluride (?? not sure on spelling) and other stuff to make it cleaner for us to use, not to mention if you are in an older house where copper pipes and the likes are starting to corrode and leaching that into the water as well.

if we are constantly flushing our mediums with a clean supply, then we are going to need to fertilise to these needs, so from my understanding we are going to need to work out what is necessary for our trees due to our location, as it has been stated about micro climates and the likes, in my climate i have a higher humidity all year than say someone from down south further where it is a hot dryer summer with less humidity and a cooler winter, in that our watering requirements change, so does this change our fertilising needs?? especially if we are constantly flushing out these ferts that the trees may not be able to take in quick enough. which can come to weather aswell where as pup has stated, trees will rarely take up any nutrients when weather gets to or above 40 degrees.

so where does this leave us?? it leaves us to our climates and our trees needs, we need to learn how, why and when they need these ferts and when they are capable of taking it in, pro's and cons of using organics to inorganics are a hard thing to work out to whether one stays in the mediums longer or shorter periods of times, and when it gets flushed out how can we tell it needs to be replaced?
i guess this takes time to learn our feeding regime, now this might cause some losses but we should learn from our mistakes and work it out.
i myself am still trying to figure it out, i dont know how much of a fine line there is between just enough fert to just to much but we will only find out one way and i would prefer to do that to a tree that is a test subject than a prized tree i have been caring for years, once i have worked out what can be given and handled then i will be up-ing the ferts, and a slow increase at that to give the tree time to adjust.

just some of the thoughts through my head any way

jamie

[Bretts]

Sorry to deviate away from the subject Jamie! But to me this is a part of it as my understanding is that fertilising creates a saltier soil therefore I must also manage my fertiliser better with hornbeam as well. This article has all other hornbeam care except for fertilising Here is the Paragraph that has turned on it's head any understanding I had of free draining mixes washing out the salt? .

Walter Pall
Hornbeam Watering
The consumption of water is not excessively high or low. The soil must always be moist. The water can be limy or acidic. However, the hornbeam reacts with some sensitivity to a high content of salts in the soil mix which shows up as brown borders on the leaves. If it is waterd very frequently,(in the case of a soil mix that dries out rapidly), to be safe it is preferable to use rain water instead of water from the faucet.

Now I always thought Walter lives in a cold climate where the hornbeams flourish. I have also heard him say he waters his hornbeams three times a day!

It does make some sense when you think of a leaking tap slowly the calcium or salt builds up leaving a stain the more it is wet and then dry the more build up you get!
Anyway it has left me very confused. I would think it the same with salt delivering fert the more often you have to fert the more build up you will get?

[Jamie]

yea i agree with the fact that more constant ferts will cause more build up, whether or not this is the case with organic ferts i am not sure, but with the way i fert and water my trees it is a constant cycle of fert and flush, so i would think that the build up would be minimal if using rain water then it would flush salt levels out while refreshing organic ferts for the tree to take in?

i was under the assumption it was more the chemical ferts that were more salt derived, so if we were to lean to a more organic fert that is of a constant level then flushing with fresh rain water/tankwater the less the salt levels would be??

not sure on this though and i wouldnt be sure on how to accurately test it either?? maybe a salinity test kit would do the trick? where to aquire one wouldnt have a clue. but the way you would do it would be with a tree that is purely fertilised with chemical fert and a tree that is purely fertilised with an organic, done over a month or so and then results could be shown??

just throwing ideas out, i might even have to look into this sort of thing


jamie

[Bretts]

You don't seem to get what I am saying Jamie!
I agree watering washes out the fertiliser/salt but from Walters statement a free draining substrate also builds up more salt than one that takes longer to dry out.
Like I said this seems to turn on it's head any thinking that a free draining mix will end up with less salt. There is alot of washing out going on but there is also alot more salt going in. From Walters statement it implies that the more often you wash it out the more residue that is left.

Think of two sponges one has a wetting agent and one doesn't. For a year keep the water and nutrient content at the same levels. When wetting giving excess water to wash it out. The one with the wetting agent takes longer to dry out so it will have less salt go through it. It seems very plausible that the sponge that has had less go through it will have less salt buildup after one year.

In theory you can probably come up with a reason this won't happen but I think the only real way to know is from long trial and error so I am looking forward to getting the chance to clarify this with Walter because I know he advocates using any fertiliser that is on special and a free draining mix will wash away what is not needed. Instead of changing ratios all year to suit the season.
Like I said he has confused me and I think this needs clarifying by some one that has practical results.

[Jamie]

i get what ya saying mate, i am just putting my thoughts out there to what seems logical to me, but your absolutely right that we are in need of some clarification off someone that has had long term practical results.


jamie

[Bretts]

I was hoping there was a device to test the salt content but it seems it is not a simple proceedure.

The salinity of a soil sample is determined by measuring the electrical conductivity. Salinity units are expressed as deci-Siemens per metre (dS/m). Information on plant tolerance is based on a soil saturated paste extract (ECe). While this method is reliable and most accurately describes the salinity status of the soil, it requires laboratory facilities to be completed properly.

[Jamie]

surely there is a simple test for it to give us some sort of a guide just like PH levels.

how can they test the salinity levels of salt water fish tanks but not salt levels of soils?

hmmmmm, what a conundrum. now you got me guessing and gonna be looking for research.


jamie

[Jamie]

found this which might be usable in a control test -

I don't know if there is a test for salt in soil. But there is something you can try. This is used with great success on coastal golf courses, where salt spray or salt water intrusion can create serious problems with the turf. I also used it in a container nursery I had some time ago, when salt water intruded into the well water.
Gypsum, when applied to the soil surface and watered in thoroughly, latches onto the sodium ions and prevents them from being taken up by the plant. The sodium is then leached out of harms way. Gypsum can be applied several times a year, and will not alter the pH of your soil. I would try to find the granulated or pelletized product, as the powdered gypsum can be a mess to handle.

found on a google search

[Bretts]

I think a water test is easy. I often do one for the pool and wondered if I could soak the soil in water and use it or something like it. I would have thought there would be a test kit like a ph tester but also seems not.
I found an article that stated there is a field test although it is less accurate. Then I found one. Looks like a very handy gadget but I bet it costs a bit
http://easytest.ipan.lublin.pl/products/fom/index.html

Edit I am not sure I trust that Jamie. The little reading I did stated that a salty soil could not be fixed. Chemically anyway. They where talking about open ground though so maybe this is worth looking into.
Can you post a link to look into it further.

[Jamie]

the link doesnt show much it was a question answer page and didnt show anything else but what you read there. i have also searched through bout twenty other things so i have lost it by now. but like i said, this was the only thing worth reading on it as the other stuff was talking about PH.

sorry mate

i will look into this soil tester you have linked.
jamie

[Bretts]

Found a price on one salinity tester and it was about $500 USD
This looks like the cheapest closest to home one yet.
http://ictinternational.com.au/salinitymeter.htm
I have asked for a price
One of these and a refractometer and I am away

[Jamie]

Found a price on one salinity tester and it was about $500 USD
This looks like the cheapest closest to home one yet.
http://ictinternational.com.au/salinitymeter.htm
I have asked for a price
One of these and a refractometer and I am away

holy $^&* if you are that concerned about the salt levels then be my guest, from what i can see so far and the results other countries have using a hell of a lot more ferts i think i can go with out the tester

i think i will go with a trial and error phase of testing using cheap, if not free struck cuttings as a test for something like this mate lol.

if you do go ahead and get this machine though mate, be sure to post results of it for us all

jamie

[Bretts]

Once I am sure My leaves aren't falling off from the lime sulfur debarcle I think I will start a thread on managing leaf burn on the hornbeams. It can be very hard to work out what is actually causing it.
Take my Literati entry Japanese hornbeam. At the time of pruning and styling it's leaves where fine. By the time the new shoots have grown out the older leaves are burnt but the new leaves are fine. I don't think it is the old leaves being more exposed to the sun after pruning as that shows up differently there must be more going on maybe there is a delay of weeks to the leaf burn from the hot weather.
I thought I would have to record daily temps dates of leaf burn showing and do that for a number of years before I could put any results together
I am not very good at that. I don't think I will be spending $600 on a salt meter but salinity tests could help alot. I have moved onto ebay now.