do we under fertilise??

[Jamie]

hey everyone, after doing a bit of research and reading some recent comments and Q and A i am starting to come to the conclusion the i am, nad i presume alot of others have been under fertilising, not so much with liquid feeds but more so slow releases and stuff like dynamic lifter and the sorts.
i have recently increased my slow releases and am going into dynamic lifter soon, as a test on some of my trees in my grow area.
i will slowly be introducing the dynamic lifter when i introduce it more and more over a period of time.
i have seen results more recently from using a high nitrogen slow release fert, and am coming to the conclusion if this is helping my trees more than just the usual then i will be looking for a more full balanced fert to cover all elements.

my increase in high nitrogen has shown a boom in foliage growth and overall vigour of the trees in the tests, and i have also added a complete trace element into the mix aswell via the instructions on the container, which i have heard by pup on here that he uses it only every 6 months or so, but the container instructions state it can be used every 2 weeks, what i am wondering is would the complete trace elements every two weeks have any adverse effects or not?

and the other thoughts are the fertilizing programs being used and whether or not lifting them will cause adverse reactions aswell if introduced over a certain period of time, now i know of reverse osmosis can be an issue but if this can be counteracted by a slow introduction then we should be good yes?

what has made me bring this discussion up is reading about how much the japanese fertilise there growing trees, reading some of jows fertiliser regimes and how much jow thinks we under feed our trees, and some research by myself and the good results from my tests so far.

any one that wants to contribute to the discussion please do, i think this coud be very beneficial to every one, new and experienced alike

cheers

jamie

[Graeme]

As a generalisation and I stress it is a generalisation, Bonsai enthusiasts do seem to be frightened to fertilise their trees as they should and probably the majority of trees could do with the application of more tucker. Having said that, there are a whole parcel of things that need to be taken into consideration when planning a fert' program for our trees. At the bare minimum I believe trees should be fertilised at the start of each season. Spring should see application of a complete fertiliser, including trace ellements. Summer a fertiliser slightly higher in Nitrogen (N), while Autumn and Winter the trees benifit from a fertiliser higher in Potassium and Phosphorus. (P and K)

Other considerations when planning a fertiliser plan is Potting medium, watering and position. If our potting medium is a really open free draining mix (like mine) the tree should be fertilised more often. Stands to reason as everything is leached out of the pot damn near a quick as its put on. Opposite is true for a heavier mix. If you water often, fertiliser will be leached from the pots quicker than those receiving less water, once again just stands to reason. Position of the tree also plays a part as well. A tree not in full sunlight will benefit from the application of a little more P and K, but we should never substitute fertilizer for sunlight.
A small aside regarding Potting medium. While not wishing to start a debate (I haven't been here long enough for that yet ) I believe the addition of course Zeolite to the mix is highly bennificial. Zeolite has an extremely high cation exchange rate [*] and when added to a real open mix will help in fertiliser retention. I use 5mm Zeolite in my mix, when I can get it, at around 25% of the grit component. Anyone know where I can get it in the Wide Bay?

The other contentious issue when it comes to fertilisers is the Organic/Chemical debate. Again, not wishing to enter into a debate I prefer Organic fertiliser, however I do use the slow release pellets in my Bonsai at potting time and I will also apply a chemical foliar feed just before putting a tree into a show.
On the subject of those little pellets, most will know, but a few may not. The original form of this fertiliser was developed in Europe where it is a fair bit cooler than Australia. The warmer the temperature the quicker the nutrient is leached from the pellet, so a 6 month fertiliser used in, say Sydney will be depleted in around 3 months (Summer time - non heatwave) and around 6 weeks in the Tropics. Considering a newly planted tree's root system doesn't start working for a few weeks after rootpruning you dont get a lot of use from the pellet if your up in those tropics - unless you have a mix with a high Cation exchange capability.

[*]Cation Exchange is the soils ability to hold onto and release nutrient. Another Bonsai mix additive with a high Cation exchange rate is rotted cow manure. I once gave a talk on fertilising Bonsai where I said cow manure wasn't all that great in Potting mix (remember I was talking about fertiliser) and got howled down. It is a great organic component to Potting mixes, but lousy as a fertiliser (or there are better forms anyhow)

Can someone tell me if this post is to long please.

[Jamie]

graeme, your post isnt to long, it is very informative, it gives me and others something to ponder and think about its great to have such an informative lecturer with us as you have stated i beleive we as as a whole (well a majority of) are under fertilizing, me included. this is why i have put this up for discussion as i would like to know the best possible options and regimes of fertilizing for my trees
it sounds like you reccomend an organic fert more so than chemical, other than chemical for foliar feeds, i take it this is because of the cation rate you are talking about. from what i am gathering if the medium used is free draining fertilisers should be applied more often as it is leached out of the mediums from waterings.

how do you go with stuff like dynamic lifter? or do you use a similar product.
i have been experimenting with a high nitrogen feed (nitrogen as urea 46% ) on some trees at the moment and although the leaves on the trees i have been using it are slightly on the large side (which i am not concerned about because there is leaf reduction techniues that can be applied later on) i have found it has provided strong growth, now i need to think about hardening off this new growth so i will have to apply a higher P and K fert to get this to happen correct??

i am being quite cautious with the urea as i dont want to over fert. with it, but so far i have applied it as a slow release and i put a small pinch in with my liquid ferts to give it a kick and so far so good

the complete trace elements i have only just recently been using but as you have described with cation and leaching i have had this go through my mind and i have been using it as per instructions every two weeks.

what are your thoughts on this graeme, and others of course.
i am sure brett and young dog (pup) will hopefully jump in on this discussion soon too.


jamie

[buddaboy]

Graeme, I found Zeolite in my local feedbarn, out with the chook food etc.
BB

[jarryd]

jamie i agree with this oppinion we are underfertilising, i have been looking at some japanese growing techniques lately and it seems they have nothing but little fertiliser containers covering the entire surtace of the pot,

does anyone know what these little fert containers contain all it ever mentions is an organic fert?

interesting topic thanks for posting this jamie

kind regards jarryd

[Jamie]

no worries jarryd and i think what is cotained in the fert baskets are a slow release cake, what the contents are i have now idea as i think each and every nursery over there would have there own mix containing different amounts of everything. but it shows that in their ideas they are covering the whole surface or most of the part anyways, which tells me that they have a clear understanding of how much fert is released into the soil and how much is leached out through watering.

now whether or not that is all they use i am unsure, if they have that much fert going into the soil it makes me wonder whether they use a chemical liquid feed.


BB, this is a good lead i will have to check it out myself, hopefully one of the local supply stores will have something that i can use in a medium, i find it interesting that graeme uses manure in his potting medium as i would of thought it would have some sort of nutrient concentration but from what your saying graeme it seems that you use it more for a moisture retention organic than anything else??

cheers.


jamie

[Pup]

Bill Valavanis wrote an interesting article on this subject, in his Magazine Bonsai International.
He said after many years of Bonsai studies he was still puzzled, as to why when he travelled to Japan. He noticed there tree's looked much greener and healthier.
So he started a study to find out why. He conducted experiments using, both organic and inorganic. Separately and together.

After this study he came to the conclusion that we were under fertilising. He also noted the benefits of organics and inorganic.
He then decided that fertilizing once a week was the way to go.
Yes he had fertiliser pellets on the soil but would also use inorganic as well.
As for fertilizer balls or pellets Vita and Dorothy Koreshoff have a very good recipe in there book.

Bonsai with Australian Natives be warned it does smell to high heaven while fermenting. I have actually made this and it also works as a hoon deterrent.

We have some young people who live behind us who have nasty habits like standing at the fence and swearing and smoking and stirring the Pup.
When I put them out to dry on top of the shed they could not handle the stink so they went inside peace
As I have stated I do it once per fortnight. Akadama is good for cation exchange. When I have used osmocote or the equivalent I have replaced it after one month. So unless you get it very cheap it is not cost effective. As Graeme said it depends on temperature.
We do get very hot dry summers here so as I said it would break down very quick here. In circumstances like we are supposed to be getting in the next week 36 today 37 tomorrow then 2 days of 40 then back down to 25. These types of temps do have the effect of at, 40 releasing all of what is there in one day. So you need to replace it even if you only put it on to day by next Thursday you would need to replace it . Not very cost effective or time saving as I find is the reason most people use this product, not for their tree's as such, which to me is the paramount reason for fertilising.
Having read the article I referred to at the beginning of this diatribe and understood the reasoning behind it. I am guilty of under fertilising,but there are those that tell me I fertilise to much. I let my tree's tell me what they need 96% of my tree's are established so what they need against developing tree's is less Nitrogen so I feed with what I call a tick over feed of lower N and P but higher K . I hope this has contributed to this topic in a positive way, as that is what was intended.
Cheers Pup
Young Dog was to let the Drongos know what a pup was
edit typos

[Jamie]

pup, very interesting, i will reply in depth more tomorrow, but if you get the chance was this article available on the net?? if so do you think it would be possible to post???


jamie

[Waltron]

Great thread Jamie
As someone reasonably new to bonsai I've been grappling with the same questions. I see reverse osmonsis mentioned in the opening post; is this even possible with slow release ferts? I have always assumed this would only be possible with high concentrations of fert in solution.

Thanks.

[Jamie]

although tired right now mate i will try and answer this to the best of my ability, reverse osmosis i dont think can be caused by slow release ferts, on another note though if you are using something like nitrogen as urea at 46% on the soil/medium and there is way to much that can be quite detrimental, other wise reverse osmosis is generally caused by the medium actually holding the fert to long in the mix and not leaching out in the waterings, when this happens reverse osmosis will occur where the tree will actually reverse water from itself into the soil to try and balane or dilute the over abundance of nutrients in the medium/soil, this is why i think a free draining mix is absolutely crucial when it comes to heavy fertilisation.


will go into it more tomorrow when i am not stuffed mate


jamie

[Graeme]

i beleive we as as a whole (well a majority of) are under fertilizing, me included. this is why i have put this up for discussion as i would like to know the best possible options and regimes of fertilizing for my trees

Me too as well Jamie, it is very easy to get lazy with fertilising, maybe not lazy, but perhaps it is a case of getting caught up with to many other things and forgetting the basics.

it sounds like you reccomend an organic fert more so than chemical, other than chemical for foliar feeds, i take it this is because of the cation rate you are talking about.

No Jamie, the Cation exchange has no effect on the type of fertiliser (or visa versa) I use Organics because, simply, I believe them a "safer"form of fertiliser. I am no "Greenie", but I believe we already have enough chemical in our lives, hence my liking to Organic fertiliser.

from what i am gathering if the medium used is free draining fertilisers should be applied more often as it is leached out of the mediums from waterings.

Correct, coupled with the amount of water one applies to ones Bonsai

how do you go with stuff like dynamic lifter? or do you use a similar product.

I love the stuff, buy it in a big as bag as I can get and go through it constantly. I also use a heap of Blood and Bone, along with Seasol and Superthrive (although those last two are not fertilisers)

i have been experimenting with a high nitrogen feed (nitrogen as urea 46% ) on some trees at the moment and although the leaves on the trees i have been using it are slightly on the large side (which i am not concerned about because there is leaf reduction techniues that can be applied later on) i have found it has provided strong growth, now i need to think about hardening off this new growth so i will have to apply a higher P and K fert to get this to happen correct??

Leaf size should not be an issue when you are developing Potensai. Remeber big leaves = big food factories = increased growth = big Bonsai. I am talking about big timber there, not necessarily big trees. A nice big thick trunk with well placed heavy root system (Nebari) is what we should be aiming for in our trees, no matter what the heigth of the tree. A 6" high tree with a 4" buttress with outshine any 2' high tree with the same buttress any day (IMHO) I could get myself into quite a good argument about Urea if I tried Jamie, so will just say, "I prefer Organic Fertilisers" Also remember that P and K are what builds wood.

i am being quite cautious with the urea as i dont want to over fert. with it, but so far i have applied it as a slow release and i put a small pinch in with my liquid ferts to give it a kick and so far so good

This is good practice mate. I tend to read the instructions whenever I try something new (might be a man thing ) so I know how much not to use. If the instructions say to mix 20ml to 5 lts water and apply every month I mix 10ml to 5 lts and apply weekly. A little, often is the rule. Solid Organics is different and you would probably real in horror if you saw me load on my Dynamic Lifter, but my mix is very open as well.

the complete trace elements i have only just recently been using but as you have described with cation and leaching i have had this go through my mind and i have been using it as per instructions every two weeks.

Trace ellements are a totally different kettle of fish mate. To much of a good thing here can be toxic to a potted tree. My suggestion with trace is to apply at potting time and then ONCE a year thereafter, usually in the Spring fertilising. Individual trace ellements can be added through the year if the tree shows signs of defficiency, such as Iron, but restrict the complete trace ellements to a single application. You will find nowdays most fertilisers contain small amounts of trace ellements in them anyhow and these more than feed the trees needs.

what are your thoughts on this graeme, and others of course.
i am sure brett and young dog (pup) will hopefully jump in on this discussion soon too.

So do I mate as it is always a good idea to listen to several views before making what we hope is an informed decission


jamie [/quote]

[Graeme]

We do get very hot dry summers here so as I said it would break down very quick here. In circumstances like we are supposed to be getting in the next week 36 today 37 tomorrow then 2 days of 40 then back down to 25. These types of temps do have the effect of at, 40 releasing all of what is there in one day. So you need to replace it even if you only put it on to day by next Thursday you would need to replace it

When Osmocote was first released here they had a lot of trouble with "Fertiliser Dump", not the correct name for it but I dont remember the scientific name and all sorts of plants were just dying without reason. They finally worked out it was the same as a Drug Addict taking a 'hotshot' and the instant hit of fertiliser was just to much for the plants. Osmocote sold in Australia is a hell of a lot thicker coated than the original stuff. That local product was even worse when it first hit the streets.
Nothing to do with the subject, but I thought interesting anyhow. The motto = "buyer be aware" I guess.

[Jamie]

ok guys refreshed now after a big day yesterday i will start with pup

you put a very interesting point here with established trees versus training and grow on trees, as you stated 96% of your trees are established and you arent after massive growth just keeping them happy and healthy, hence you are feeding a less N and P but more K. i can understand this as you are after more of a controlled growth not booming growth to add girth, height and branching.

now i wil throw this on for ya pup, when ou do a restyle and cut one of your established trees right back or down (if you do) to re develop the trees, maybe even one of your "oh bugger" moments i would presume your fert regime changes from low NP high K, to a more rounded mix of NPK say that of in a miracle grow mix or more??? after all if all branches of an established tree are cut buck to trunks to be restyled and changed i figure your fert regime must change accordingly??

graeme mate you are very thorough in the response, much appreciated, as with pup aswell, covering alot in this its good.

i agree in a growth stage leaf size isnt an issue as you stated in pushes more food throughout the tree, leaf reduction techniques can be used in refinement stages of bonsai, now i dunno about big bonsai i am more of a shohin man myself (due to the fact my back cant lift big trees any more, but thats another story) but to get a good sized shohin tree we cant just expect to say buy a nursery stock tree with a trunk that is 3/8th of an inch thick and put it in a pot and call it shohin, (well you can if you like but this comes into height to trunk ratio's which is a different thing again) as i have been learning throughout my time to create a shohin you need a bigger tree to be chopped down from quite a large size tree for the nebari and trunk thckness to have the right perspective of height to trunk ratio, and then develop the tree from there, which brings me to why i started the thread of fertilisers, obviously a tree grows at the rate it grows but we can always help push it along by feeding it right and giving it the right conditions.

the reason i got the nitrogen as urea was A. i have been reading up on it and found what it produces and with strong leaf growth even being larger it helps with pushing energy into the tree, the bigger the leaf the more energy it can receive and produce food for the tree. i am still quite cuatious with it as i dont want to kill it from kindness, the next fert bags i will be getting will be of P and K, as i am starting to think if i can control the amounts of these ferts going into the trees i can be in control of everything that happens with the trees

as for dynamic lifter i still havent got it yet, i may be over cuatious as i have heard of mixed results being from putting to much on too quickly. when i get the stuff it will be a gradual adjustment of putting it on, a bit more everytime it needs it unlit it is at the stage i think neccessary. i think this is the best way.

as for trace elements after reading what you have stated i think i will back off with this as i agree that they are in other liquid ferts like miracle gro and such.
my reasoning behind it was the trace elements container stated they can be used every two weeks, maybe i should read again as that may not be for potted plants, i sort of figured the leaching rates may have been an issue with this??

i think personally once i have dynamic on the soils of my trees in there growth stages and the chemical ferts i am using i might be getting somewhere close to the right amounts, i am even thinking of fertbaskets with slow release to go on them aswell of mixing up fert cakes to go on the soils, this would i think cover the fertiliser needs of growth trees somewhere close to where they should be and not be under fertilising.

i still think there is a lot to cover, including reverse osmosis which was a question from waltron, now i answered a little bit of it but i think that there is more to it than what i answered, although i dont think it is possible from slow release ferts but with luquid ferts and slow releases mixed in it might be a different story, i think that is why it is so important to mix as per directed or even a little less depending on what is on/in the soil/medium of your trees, if you have a massive amount of dynamic on top of your soil along with slow release baskets and cakes and then you go and mix a liquid fert that is way to strong say 5 times the strength of reccomended dilution rates, then i think there could be some troubles, but that also depends on how long it sits in the medium.soil for, if it is a free draining mix and watering is needed three times in the day you have fertilised due to extreme heats then i beleive that you wouldnt have an issue because you would leach alot through the watering. now if the soil.medium is rententative or bogged up and it holds moisture which has the liquid fert in it then i think that reverse osmosis could be an issue. its never a good thing if the tree needs to reverse its intake of water and nutrients to an outflow of water to try and balance the soils nutrient levels so it isnt as high as what the tree has then that tree is going to be in trouble very quickly, if you feel like this could be a problem i think dunk watering and leaving the pot to soak for a fair while ( a good couple of hours) will allow the soil nutrient levels to balance out.

this is just my thoughts on it, i havent had an issue with reverse osmosis but i think what i just described may have covered it???? if i have missed anything guys, please add to it

cheers

jamie

[Pup]

As I said Jamie any thing that is being developed, that means any thing that is in need of growth above normal. Will get the high NPK ferts.

Shohin are nice so are Mame they need more care though especially in dry hot areas as mine is. Chuhin are easy to handle .
Under 450.
You have time on your side mate you CAN grow them on. Did I mention Patience young man

[Jamie]

i vaguely remember patience was a part of bonsai... somewhere in there..


in all seriousness though this isnt just a fact of under feeding trees in there growing on stages but also in there set stages where we want to keep them in great condition once at a stage we are happy with, feeding is still an important part there, especially when we are restyling a tree and need new growth or we want our tree to look in pristeen condition for showing them.

and i dont think there is anything wrong with us giving our growing on trees a bit of a push to help put on extra growth is there ???

if i can give my growing on trees something extra that will help them get from the growth stage to a refinement stage a little bit quicker i will, its nothing to do with patience, its all bout learning new ways and techniques

and actually, graeme, you said something bout your speical waiy or something like that to get figs up and going, are you gonna reveal it to us mate????


jamie