Zelkova project

[Matthew]

Mike

good changes in 2 years. you can clearly see a difference especially that first right branch a lot more mature looking. I think it will be a great broom in a few years and to me the way zelcova should be styled. Just a side note while in korea there are Japanese grey back elms ie zelcova as well as a Korean variety over 300 years old there. At one palace one tree was over 8 feet in diameter.

[treeman]

"A classic broom ..just like you see in the books"
Just what everyone's styling of Zelkova should aspire too - haven't we progressed?
In 50 +years time, our future generation's "bonsai" will all look identical - made form the same recipe that's been circulating in books for years.
(I guess they can always cut back to a stump - and start again?)

Which forum are the "trees" styled in....you know ...just like you see in nature?

Kcar,

I happen to agree with you. More strongly than you could know! Please try to make it to the convention here next year for more...
The natural growth habit of zelkova is very similar to the classic Japanese bonsai styling of the same species. See below.

natzel.JPG

That is the kind of smooth transition from branch to branch which is usually aimed for and the reason I said that this tree will never be like that simply because it does no grow that way even though I did try to force it to for years.

My tree might end up looking more like this....at best! (the top part...more disordered)

natzel2.JPG

Or more likely like this below only more symmetrical. Either way I would be satisfied. I'll probably never see it close to ''finished''.

natural bonsai.JPG

[treeman]

Mike

good changes in 2 years. you can clearly see a difference especially that first right branch a lot more mature looking. I think it will be a great broom in a few years and to me the way zelcova should be styled. Just a side note while in korea there are Japanese grey back elms ie zelcova as well as a Korean variety over 300 years old there. At one palace one tree was over 8 feet in diameter.

Thanks Matt. I'm glad you noticed that. The next change should be very profound compared to the last two years.....I hope.

8 feet!...that's just insane.

[Keep Calm and Ramify]

Treeman,
Thanks for replying with your photo visuals - as you can probably guess, I prefer the second photo the most.
Your recent reply's show your both very excellent in both technical & horticultural aspects of bonsai. I joined this site after reading your post "Theres not much activity happening here" and I now know you will be up for an open minded discussion.
So here goes......
At this point in my bonsai journey, I am starting to try not making bonsai. It is hard, as there is a struggle to unlearn.
In your years of practising, have you ever questioned / changed your styling techniques ? Do you make a conscious decision when working on new raw material that it will be styled as "naturalistic" or "traditional Japanese". As a nation, I know Australia is still considered new to this art form. But in your opinion, why are we (myself partially included) still anxiously & most times disappointingly trying to make Japanese looking trees - is it just to self-validate that "Yes - I am doing a real Bonsai"?

I also don't believe you would expect me to think, that you would ever have the unfortunate event of your tree being "finished"

[Matt S]

KC&R,

That is an interesting question worthy of discussion, but in the interests of keeping this thread on topic I'll point you towards these discussions which cover exactly what you're asking:

viewtopic.php?t=21723#p219902

viewtopic.php?f=131&t=21363&start=0

You've correctly identified Treeman as the person with an opinion on this!

Matt.

[Keep Calm and Ramify]

Matt = WOW thanks for this direction. I could only read about the prices of over expensive bonsai on Ebay & Gumtree for so long...

Mr Treeman - Now I see ...You are a F'n Guru.

[treeman]

Treeman,
Thanks for replying with your photo visuals - as you can probably guess, I prefer the second photo the most.
Your recent reply's show your both very excellent in both technical & horticultural aspects of bonsai. I joined this site after reading your post "Theres not much activity happening here" and I now know you will be up for an open minded discussion.
So here goes......
At this point in my bonsai journey, I am starting to try not making bonsai. It is hard, as there is a struggle to unlearn.
In your years of practising, have you ever questioned / changed your styling techniques ? Do you make a conscious decision when working on new raw material that it will be styled as "naturalistic" or "traditional Japanese". As a nation, I know Australia is still considered new to this art form. But in your opinion, why are we (myself partially included) still anxiously & most times disappointingly trying to make Japanese looking trees - is it just to self-validate that "Yes - I am doing a real Bonsai"?

I also don't believe you would expect me to think, that you would ever have the unfortunate event of your tree being "finished"

Without getting into another deep discussion about this, just a few points.
Yes I do now consciously think about branch placement more now and I make an effort to steer clear of traditional views. It's not something that ''just happens'' overnight. If you have a traditionally styled tree, it's very difficult to change it and it's probably often better to stick to it. We have no collected coniferous material in this country as they do in the US and EU so we can only start from scratch. I see countless demos where they have taken really interesting wild trees and reduced them to tamed boring things which to me personally, is a missed opportunity. It is not easy to throw away tradition and take a fresh look at things. We are all pre-programed to see and do things in a certain way. It takes much more thought and projection into the future to change. Most people would be left unsatisfied if they didn't see a ''finished'' shape at the end of a demo and that also puts pressure on the demonstrator.
There are many things we can consider when working on a tree for the first time. Many of these are not considered at the moment. I'm in the process of putting together some of these ideas and will present them at the convention in Melbourne in 2018.

[treeman]

Wow this thread really did go off on a tangent!
Anyway, back to the tree.
Here it is after 3 months of growth. This tree was fed with half a cup of osmocote in spring and I have just buried 20 organic cakes in the soil about a week ago.

P1110745 - Copy.JPG

After removing a lot off branches and rubbish growing in all sorts of places. Cutting back stubs that didn't shoot etc. I just kept well placed branches regardless of their thickness.

P1110747.JPG

After a bit of wire to direct them. I have left them long on purpose as I want as much choice as possible next time I cut. The plan is to let them grow for the rest of the season to bulk them up and then remove 2/3 if possible in autumn/winter
It's going to be a long road...........

P1110749.JPG

[melbrackstone]

What a wonderful progression!

I'm disappointed I won't be at the convention to watch your presentation.

[BB Brian]

Makes me want to put a few of my trees in the ground! thanks for sharing mate!

[lenlen]

Thanks for sharing, it will be great to see the further progression of this tree!

[treeman]

Update on this monster. Not much has developed since the summer defoliation and re-growth but look at the central leader compared to before.

P1120353 - Copy.JPG

[Rory]

What does the F stand for.... Firewood? ....ahem. Sorry. As its you I thought I'd get away with that one.

Wow and I thought I was starting long term projects.
I can see it looking nice in a long, long time.

In the mean time I hope that it gets exposed to mutant radiation, and takes over your demonstration years in the future... (that's you in the blue pants).

Homer.jpg

[treeman]

What does the F stand for.... Firewood? ....ahem. Sorry. As its you I thought I'd get away with that one.

Wow and I thought I was starting long term projects.
I can see it looking nice in a long, long time.

In the mean time I hope that it gets exposed to mutant radiation, and takes over your demonstration years in the future... (that's you in the blue pants).

Homer.jpg

Ha ha, yes very droll

''I can see it looking nice in a long, long time''. And just what the hell is that supposed to mean?

[Pearcy001]

He's right Mike, no good. Let me take it off your hands

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