Trident maple

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ben17487
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Trident maple

Post by ben17487 »

Hey all!

Looking for some opinions and advise on this tree and its roots..

My girlfriend bought it for my birthday from Bodhi back in April. I was looking for a tree that was ready to begin branch development and it's basically a tree for me to learn and experiment with.

The only thing is I'm unsure about the current roots and wanted to get people's opinions on them. They're quite different and interesting but I tend to lean towards the traditional nebari root spread and am considering ground layering it...

Here's some photos.

Front
Image

Right
Image

Back
Image

Left
Image

And after some cleaning up, this is my intended front.

Image

Bodhi, I would also love your advise and input as we didn't have much time to talk on the day and I'm sure you had a vision in mind for the tree.


Cheers!
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Re: Trident maple

Post by KIRKY »

Nice tree. I understand what you want with the roots. My advice would be not to go to high when air layering.
Do it to where the roots sit flat and then air layer at that point. Then tooth pick method and or graft new roots into bare spots. To find where the roots start to look flat, I would put it into a deep pot then cover with soil until you like the look of the roots then make them and air layer at that height. You have a buttress taper that in my opinion you don't want to loose.
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Re: Trident maple

Post by ben17487 »

Thanks Kirky, that's what I was thinking, try to utilize as much flare as possible and introduce new roots into the open gaps..
I'd like to see this in quite a small pot at some stage and I feel the current roots push the tree a bit to high for its potential shape.

Do you think a trident would throw shoots from roots like these if they were cut when the layer is complete? Could make an interesting group if they did..

I've been wondering about hard cut backs on tridents, as I've never done it, do they back bud like a Chinese elm would if you cut below the lowest bud?

Cheers!
Ben
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Re: Trident maple

Post by shibui »

I have tried root cuttings of tridents. They stayed alive for over a year but did not produce ant shoots so eventually died.

Don't bother with layering the roots. I would just cut all the roots where you want them to grow new roots and plant it back in a pot. Tridents are really great at making new roots. When I dig tridents from the grow beds most of the roots are cut back to around 1-2 cm from the trunk so they will produce lots of finer roots close to the trunk.

You can also cut the top back pretty ruthlessly. Elms can produce new shoots from the cambium layer wherever you cut. Tridents only bud where there are dormant buds but there will be buds right down the trunk - think of the seedling that produced this tree. It had leaves every few cm up the trunk and each of those leaves had a dormant bud. The leaves are long gone but the buds are still there just in case. On the newer shoots you can see the nodes where there are buds so you can target your pruning to stimulate buds below to grow.
Don't be frightened to cut branches right off if they have long internodes. You can't get shoots where there are no nodes and branches look terrible if there are big spaces between the side shoots. There's always some dormant buds at the base of every shoot so as long as you leave a stub, and don't have too many strong shoots growing above it, new shoots will grow.
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Re: Trident maple

Post by ben17487 »

Thanks for sharing your wealth of knowledge shibui :)
I'm a little reluctant to cut the roots clean off because there are no fine roots up high at all.. You think that won't be an issue for it?

Also with the dormant buds on the trunk you speak of, are they generally always visible?
I have a much younger tree that at some stage I'll have to cut back quite low to make anything of it but it hasn't got any buds till up higher on the trunk.

Thanks once again!
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Re: Trident maple

Post by bodhidharma »

Shibui has given great advice and that would be the way to go with it. Tridents are very forgiving. It already has flare and if you are not confident then go slowly. Just cut a few and pot it a little deeper. Then next season do some more. Good job so far :tu:
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Re: Trident maple

Post by ben17487 »

Thanks very much Bodhi, I assume if I'm going to go the hard road I would be best to do it in August before bud burst?
Still got a got a while to consider it anyway :P
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Re: Trident maple

Post by dansai »

Shibui shows how much roots he cuts here.
Last edited by dansai on June 20th, 2016, 7:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trident maple

Post by shibui »

Also with the dormant buds on the trunk you speak of, are they generally always visible?
No! After a few years any dormant buds virtually disappear. You can see them on 1 yo wood and you can generally see the ring where the nodes are on 2, 3 and sometimes 4yo wood but after that it gets far more difficult to pick. On older wood you need to have faith and maybe some imagination. As I said earlier, all trunks started out as a seedling which had leaves and nodes around 2-4 cm apart. As the tree grows those nodes STAY WHERE THEY WERE. They don't get further apart, or move up the trunk. The trunk just gets fatter. Everything else - scars, branches and those nodes, stay right where they started out.
I have seen occasions where really old wood has failed to produce buds where there should be some but generally with the trees we are cutting back hard there will still be enough viable buds for the trunk to sprout.
I'm a little reluctant to cut the roots clean off because there are no fine roots up high at all.. You think that won't be an issue for it?
If you've had a look at the thread Dansai has offered you'll see that tridents don't need to have any fine roots where you prune roots. All my field grown tridents are treated like that at some stage and I expect a 99.9% survival rate. If this was one of my trees I would have no hesitation in cutting all those roots right above where they turn downward - but this is not my tree, it is yours. If you want to go the long, slow, more comforting way and layer each root or take a few years with the alternative method Bodhi has offered please be my guest. All of them work but YOU need to be comfortable with the whole process. I've just offered an alternative that I know works for me.
I would be best to do it in August before bud burst?
Here, in NE VIC I can cut both roots and trunks anytime from mid winter through to bud burst and be sure of a successful outcome. I have also cut back tridents in summer and they still respond, just a bit quicker. I do try to avoid the period just before bud burst through to a few weeks later when the leaves have hardened a bit. Seems maples bleed profusely at that time and don't heal very well. Note that if you cut a maple and it does start to bleed a lot (not just a few dribbles) a quick root prune usually stops the bleeding.
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Re: Trident maple

Post by Boics »

Just want to say a thanks Shibui to all your hard work, documentation and sharing of experience in regards to trident maples.
Both this thread and then one linked above by Dansai (which I had seen and viewed numerous times before) are perfect examples of your generosity.
Due to this exposure and your willingness to share the quality of Bonsai and in particular trident maples has been improved in this country.

Would be great to build this sort of confidence on many other species.
One of the fabulous things about growing bonsai is as you get old and decrepit your trees get old and beautiful
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Re: Trident maple

Post by ben17487 »

Here here Boics!
Every question I think I've ever posted on this forum has received a detailed and well explained response by shibui, you really are an asset to the community and your generosity and time is much appreciated!

I'll most certainly trust your opinion shibui, but just to make sure I fully understand...

If I cut the roots like this;

Image

I'll essentially be leaving a flat bottom on the tree, that's still gonna be ok?
I have seen it done in blog posts now that I think about it.
Pretty keen to see the results as this will have a nice spread :)

Cheers guys!
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Re: Trident maple

Post by shibui »

Yep, that's about what I'd do if it were mine Ben. Flat bottom is a good description. Cut vertical roots as short as possible. You want your tree to put most effort into a shallow root system that will provide great visual nebari and will thicken the base of the trunk. Shallow root system is also vital when you want to get your bonsai into a shallow bonsai pot.

Might even take the root on the right back an bit closer to the trunk but only because the new roots that grow will provide ramification of the future nebari. If you cut the roots long you'll still have the same few roots sticking out of the trunk for all time. Think of the roots as like branches. You want them to divide and taper and you don't want a long. straight bit sticking straight out from the trunk before it starts to divide or change direction.
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Re: Trident maple

Post by ben17487 »

Then that is what I will do! Fingers crossed :P
I'm thinking I'll do it around mid July and is it best practice to apply rooting hormone mix to all the cuts?
I'm going to scrape the cambium around the areas with no roots also..

Thanks for all the help!
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Re: Trident maple

Post by shibui »

I don't use rooting hormone on pruned roots. I read somewhere that those hormones have no effect on roots, only on stem material :reading: Can't vouch for the truth of that info though - it just seemed like a good excuse to save some time and resources by not using any :shifty:

Mid July would be fine. I've already started to dig tridents out of the grow beds and root prune those but I'm comfortable with the process so it does not cause me any stress. Maybe someone new to the concept should wait until closer to spring - less time to worry between root prune and new buds growing :whistle:

After severe root prune and when trying to induce new roots plant the tree a bit deeper than usual so the cuts are well covered. Don't want them getting dry before new roots get going properly.
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Re: Trident maple

Post by ben17487 »

Hmm that's interesting and good to know :)
Yeh it's only just gotten cold here in Melbourne. Much colder where you are I assume. I've got some other tridents that haven't dropped all their leaves yet.. Been a bit slow after that warm autumn.
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