Chinese Elm roots

[melbrackstone]

Hi all, I acquired this Chinese Elm bare rooted around 2 years ago. (An apology gift from a person I'd bought other stock from.) It was an ugly piece with a 350mm long straight trunk above the bend at the base, so I trunk chopped it and placed it into this 380mm long pot. The root spread is massive, and it's the only pot I had that I could fit it in. The branches you see are all pretty much new from the last two years, and I'm just muddling along trying to learn how to build them without messing up too much.

My question, however, is should I ground layer it to try and get a more compact root spread? If so, when is the best time to do this?

Any suggestions welcomed.

Cheers

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[Raging Bull]

Hi Mel,
I aquired a C.E about a year ago as a starter. I immediately thinned it out a bit as it had only been "hedge-clipped" and was rather bushy. Then I left it until August. even in our winter up here it kept growing, so in August I root pruned it quite hard and used some of the offcuts to grow new C.E.s. I also defoliated the tree and shaped it some more as it didn't drop any leaves over winter.It's still in a grow pot and it's just gone from strength to strength and will be due for another root prune this coming winter/spring. As you would have noticed from your tree they are very hardy and do well here in S.E. Qld.
With your tree, if it were mine I would not hesitate to prune the roots hard again and then plant it a little deeper into the soil if you think they are protruding too much. You could easily use one or two of the root prunings instead of ground layering. Just make sure you leave the trunk end of the root above the ground and you'll find they shoot out very quickly.
I think you have managed the shaping well so far and it shows good potential. I would be starting to think about wiring a couple of the main branches you want to keep.
Cheers, Frank.

[melbrackstone]

H Frank, thanks. Yes they do grow madly here, and I'm happy with how fast it's going! At this time of year it's putting on massive growth, but I don't know whether I should be ground layering it now or leave it til late Winter. I haven't taken it out of this pot since it went in there 2 years ago, so I'm sure it's got plenty of finer roots to be going on with, so I'm wondering if I should just lop off the big un's at the trunk and bury it deeper to encourage a new nebari, or just chop the thick roots shorter, and make do...

[Keep Calm and Ramify]

Mel ....Look Quick! There's a Ninja crepe myrtle in the background too!
Interested as to how you are developing this, if it's in bonsai training?

I'm wondering if I should just lop off the big un's at the trunk and bury it deeper to encourage a new nebari,

This is probably what I would do - remove the un-sightly's (maybe over a period of time) if the plant has enough finer roots to sustain.

[Ryceman3]

Hi Mel,
There's a lot of tentacles on that trunk which can work OK with some trees (exposed root etc.) but I think yours would look best without them. Probably wouldn't remove them all at once and it is dependent on what the rest of the roots underneath look like, maybe take a few off (as KCaR has suggested) and then have a good look at next repot to consider what can go and what needs to stay until the root system you want to keep is big enough to handle removing the tentacles. You can go hard on CE at root pruning time so don't be shy. I like the shape that is developing in the rest of your tree!

[melbrackstone]

Mel ....Look Quick! There's a Ninja crepe myrtle in the background too!

so there is! That's another tree in progress....that'll need to be repotted into a smaller container this Winter! It's in mel-mode bonsai training, KCAR in that I don't have a freakin clue what I'm doing....lol

There's a lot of tentacles on that trunk

There sure are, Ryceman, and they're too thick and strong for the size of plant that I want, which is why I'd thought ground layering might be the way to go, in a single season I'd have a whole new nebari to work on, rather than messing with those unsightly tentacles? I'm guessing the roots underneath are pretty healthy, judging by the health of the tree on top...

Thing is, if I go for a huge root reduction in Winter, can I then ground layer at the same time, or would that be too much of a test for the tree?

[Ryceman3]

Thing is, if I go for a huge root reduction in Winter, can I then ground layer at the same time, or would that be too much of a test for the tree?

If the roots underneath are vigorous and plentiful and a ground layer is the way you want to head then I would have a go. I have done some pretty brutal stuff (well, I think pretty brutal!) to the roots of CE in the past and I'm yet to lose a tree. I can see the benefit of a clean slate with the ground layer ... by the time the cuts from amputating the tentacles healed over you would have a nice nebari created through a ground layer I reckon. Obviously you have a few months to mull it over! Post it up and keep the progress going if you do go down this path - it would be good to see how it plays out.

[melbrackstone]

I'm taking it for granted the roots under the tentacles are pretty good, but will know more when I take it out of the pot. That is my hope, that a fresh, new, and much more compact nebari will look a great deal better, AND allow me to put it into a pot that I can manage easily. This one is way too big...

I will continue to mull it over, and yes, will post if and when I decide which is the best way to go. Thanks Ryceman

[melbrackstone]

The crepe myrtle for KCAR....this needs another thread...

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[shibui]

Chinese elm do not seem to produce lots of roots. Just a few fat ones is normal and I'm not sure whether layering will give you a better result or not. What you have does not look too bad and I think I'd try to work with what's there and improve it if at all possible. There does seem to be one higher root that might need to be removed completely?
RB and Ryceman have suggested shortening the existing roots and that's what I'd do too. Cut them way back to just a few cm from the trunk so they ramify close to the trunk. CE roots grow back just as well as the top does so radical reduction is usually OK. If there's still spaces you'd like more roots you can try removing the bark in those spots - sort of modified part ground layer - to get new roots or maybe try grafting some of the roots you cut off into places they are needed. You should be able to do both at the same time.
If Chinese elm does not drop the leaves you can still root prune with the leaves on. I prefer late winter so they get active soon after. I have had a few die after early winter root pruning - I guess that they get fungal infection through the cuts in cold, wet soil.

Any roots you cut off can be put in as root cuttings. I think RB already said that Resulting new plants could be used to graft more roots if the first attempt don't work.

Thing is, if I go for a huge root reduction in Winter, can I then ground layer at the same time, or would that be too much of a test for the tree?

Why root reduction and layer? Won't layering eventually remove the existing roots so there's no point in shortening them?

[melbrackstone]

Why root reduction and layer? Won't layering eventually remove the existing roots so there's no point in shortening them?

Good point! lol....

Thanks shibui, I just want to get a more compact nebari, so if you reckon it'll be smarter to shorten them I guess that's what I'll do. That high one is a real nuisance, so yes, it can definitely go!

I did try to do the toothpick thing with this last year, in the gaps, but I clearly need to practise that a little more... I also have a bunch of root cuttings from last year, growing on into little mames and shohin... very much appreciate the CE for that option. Root grafting is another technique I'll have to study up on. Thanks for your help.

[Keep Calm and Ramify]

The crepe myrtle for KCAR....this needs another thread...

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Really appreciate you posting the picture - Mel. Your crepe is looking the goods!

There's a lot of tentacles on that trunk:

As a return gesture, here is a shot of 3x happy chaps underneath the cover of my chinese elm's testicles.. I mean...tentacles ...TENTACLES!!!

[melbrackstone]

KCAR

[Nate.bonsai]

If your ‘tentacles’ look like that mate, they need pruning.


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[Keep Calm and Ramify]

If your ‘tentacles’ look like that mate, they need pruning.


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Hi Nate - with this Elm in particular, it's all about the "tentacles" I feel.

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