EEEK... Please help my Elm

[EastsideBonsaidude]

Gday guys and girls

Ive only recently joined the forum and am glad I did - so many good posts and Im sure Ill be here for days going threw them all.

I purchased this little guy a few years ago and have been playing around with it - never took it to seriously and really had no idea what I was doing.

However; Im starting to get into it a lot more and have done a little research and have come to the conclusion that I have totally butchered the poor tree.

I really like the trunks shape and design and would really like to thicken it up. I would like to get a little more height too.

Can the tree be saved or has the damage already been done? Is there a way that I can thicken the trunk without loosing its current style?

If need be I can attach more images tomorrow as I have just realised that its hard to make out the tree due to the background.

[shibui]

It takes a lot to damage a Chinese elm. They will grow back from almost anything. I actually think this one is not too bad.

There is only one way to thicken a bonsai without losing the current shape - time and lots of it. All trees thicken year by year. If they grow a lot they also thicken a lot. If we prune constantly and limit the number of leaves the trunk will only increase by millimetres each year. If you are prepared to wait for 10 or 20 years you'll have a nice thick trunk with good ramification and very few scars.
If you really want a thicker trunk in a shorter time the best way is to allow the tree to grow unpruned for a year or 2 then cut back hard. Elms almost always bud after pruning, even when cut right back to old bare wood. This grow and prune cycle can be repeated until the trunk is the desired thickness. Drawback is that the shape will change as the tree grows. You will also probably end up with one or more scars on the trunk somewhere. Most of us rely on hiding those scars at the back of the trunk while growing new branches and ramification.

You just need to decide what you want from your bonsai.

[EastsideBonsaidude]

Hi shibui

Thanks for your reply.

As much as I like the idea of letting the tree grow for 10 - 20 years I think ill opt for the other option - grow for a few years and then hard prune and repeat.

I imagine I should find an appropriate location in the garden and plant it into the ground where it will remain for a number of years, right?

Furthermore, you're suggesting I should ( after a few years of untouched growing ) hard prune the tree. Does this mean I should cut the trunk down low where i imagine the first branch should be? Then once this has been done and the tree has grown a little more ( I imagine shoots should then grow from the cut made ) I would select a branch to keep as well as a leader to continue growing the trunk in the desired direction? Then again in a few years of untouched growth hard prune again but this time a little higher and repeat the above ?

Thanks again.

Mark

*** Unsure why the image I attached came out sideways. Sorry about that *****

[shibui]

Larger pot or garden will give good growth rates.

The plan you have outlined is essentially correct with a few minor changes maybe. Most of us are now digging ground grown trees every year or 2 at the most to avoid ending up with just a couple of really thick roots. Dig and root prune to remove all downward roots and shorten any thick laterals each winter then replant until trunk looks good.
I also prefer to prune a couple of times, especially the first year. Having several strong leaders will help the trunk thicken and will give options to prune so you will get better taper, smaller scars and some bends in the trunk. Trying to avoid growing a thick trunk with a single large cut that you'll then need to spend years to heal over. It may take a little extra time to get the size but you'll more than save that in the developing stage afterward and usually end up with a far superior result.

Some phones and apps seem to turn the photos sideways no matter which way you post them. Not sure if they are reverting to the original orientation it was taken or just being contrary.

[EastsideBonsaidude]

Great Thanks mate.

Lets see what happens...

[dansai]

One thing I'ld like to mention... So you want to grow in the ground and cut back hard so that you don't have to develop the tree over 10 - 20 years. All this will give you is a much thicker trunk a lot quicker, maybe with some big scars and quite possibly loss of movement, unless you are very careful with controlling the growth. As shibui says above, a little bit more attention as it grows may slow the thickening down a little, but will give better results. The thing is, it will still take 10 - 20 years to develop your tree. Elms do grow and ramify fast compared to some species, but good bonsai take time. I agree that putting it into the ground is the way to grow, just remember that it will take time and attention and my not even turn out that good. If you would like to speed up the process then get a tree that has already been developed.

[EastsideBonsaidude]

One thing I'ld like to mention... So you want to grow in the ground and cut back hard so that you don't have to develop the tree over 10 - 20 years. All this will give you is a much thicker trunk a lot quicker, maybe with some big scars and quite possibly loss of movement, unless you are very careful with controlling the growth. As shibui says above, a little bit more attention as it grows may slow the thickening down a little, but will give better results. The thing is, it will still take 10 - 20 years to develop your tree. Elms do grow and ramify fast compared to some species, but good bonsai take time. I agree that putting it into the ground is the way to grow, just remember that it will take time and attention and my not even turn out that good. If you would like to speed up the process then get a tree that has already been developed.

Yeah, I am beginning to understand that the process is a long game and not a short one. I appreciate how long it takes and this is precisely what intrigues me about Bonsai. The idea that a Bonsai tree can be 50 years in the making is amazing and shows complete dedication to the craft.

My only issue is that I have four trees that all require to be left alone for about 10 years or more - which Im willing to do but then leaves me with nothing to do.....

I need to find some trees that are at a appropriate point where I can begin to style them. Otherwise this new found hobby will be over before it began haha.

[TimS]

I had this same thing happen when i started, i had some very young material that meant i didn't have a whole lot to do and found it a little tedious. I now have some larger more advanced stock to work on so i get to refine those skills, and also enjoy growing younger trees that either cost me nothing or very little to start as well as rarer species that i cannot get other than by seed. In the west we kind of expect instant results or at least very short term results, but bonsai does not respect our wishes for a quick product.

Your elm actually looks quite reasonable and given how rampantly they grow you will be surprised how quickly you get get some good structure happening with them. I cut back a young one hard that i had done a similar thing with where i just kind of let it grow and occasionally pruned it back rather than having a plan for it.

[EastsideBonsaidude]

I had this same thing happen when i started, i had some very young material that meant i didn't have a whole lot to do and found it a little tedious. I now have some larger more advanced stock to work on so i get to refine those skills, and also enjoy growing younger trees that either cost me nothing or very little to start as well as rarer species that i cannot get other than by seed. In the west we kind of expect instant results or at least very short term results, but bonsai does not respect our wishes for a quick product.

Your elm actually looks quite reasonable and given how rampantly they grow you will be surprised how quickly you get get some good structure happening with them. I cut back a young one hard that i had done a similar thing with where i just kind of let it grow and occasionally pruned it back rather than having a plan for it.

I had recently purchased - to be delivered in the coming days - some Japanese Red Maple seeds along with Californian Redwood seeds knowing that they would be years and years in the making and am looking forward to the entire process of growing something from seed and caring for it over what could be decades.

However, im going to need to get some more advanced trees so that I can keep this interest alive.

[Ryceman3]

It’s a good idea to spread your tree selections between different species (as it seems you are), because different “stuff” needs to be done to different kinds of trees at different times of the year, so the theory is you’ll keep busy all year round if you’ve got a diverse selection to play with.
Having said that, Winter is probably the quietest time in terms of stuff to do on a lot of tree species. Later in the season there’ll be root work etc for some deciduous before they break bud and rip into Spring, but now is a little like the calm before the storm that is Spring... there is still stuff to do in Winter, but Spring is another level so there’s action on the horizon!

[shibui]

My advice has always been to keep a few of these little 'bonsai' in pots so you feel that you really are a bonsai grower and can show off to the 'lations and maybe even friends but also have some other trees growing on in the background so you'll have some impressive trees to work with and show off in the near future.
If funds permit purchase of pre prepared material at any stage will reduce the wait.
Also be on the lookout for garden grown specimens and ferals. They can yield great bonsai and are often consigned to the tip during renovations, etc. I have had great success with azalea, callistemon, melaleuca, banksia, buxus, euonymus and others from other people's gardens when they are renovating the garden beds or extending the house.
I also feel good when I help the environment by removing feral weeds - olives, hawthorn, privet, plums, etc.
Any plant can be collected but I think you need to get an eye for which trunks will produce something good without too much time and effort.

I notice that Moongate Bonsai at Bendigo is running Yamadori workshops for bonsai clubs where you can come and play with their trees. $10 gets you lunch and morning/afternoon tea. David guides you through what to look for when collecting yamadori for bonsai - learn to see the 'tree within', a tour of the nursery (over 3000 trees) and select a tree to prune and wire under guidance. That's a whole day of bonsai info and practice and lunch for just $10 per person! You can leave the tree behind afterward and just take what you've learbed or purchase it (or others) when you leave. Sounds like a great opportunity being offered to bonsai clubs by very experienced yamadori experts

[EastsideBonsaidude]

My advice has always been to keep a few of these little 'bonsai' in pots so you feel that you really are a bonsai grower and can show off to the 'lations and maybe even friends but also have some other trees growing on in the background so you'll have some impressive trees to work with and show off in the near future.
If funds permit purchase of pre prepared material at any stage will reduce the wait.
Also be on the lookout for garden grown specimens and ferals. They can yield great bonsai and are often consigned to the tip during renovations, etc. I have had great success with azalea, callistemon, melaleuca, banksia, buxus, euonymus and others from other people's gardens when they are renovating the garden beds or extending the house.
I also feel good when I help the environment by removing feral weeds - olives, hawthorn, privet, plums, etc.
Any plant can be collected but I think you need to get an eye for which trunks will produce something good without too much time and effort.

I notice that Moongate Bonsai at Bendigo is running Yamadori workshops for bonsai clubs where you can come and play with their trees. $10 gets you lunch and morning/afternoon tea. David guides you through what to look for when collecting yamadori for bonsai - learn to see the 'tree within', a tour of the nursery (over 3000 trees) and select a tree to prune and wire under guidance. That's a whole day of bonsai info and practice and lunch for just $10 per person! You can leave the tree behind afterward and just take what you've learbed or purchase it (or others) when you leave. Sounds like a great opportunity being offered to bonsai clubs by very experienced yamadori experts

Thanks for the advice. The Yamadori workshop sounds great and that would be something I would be keen to do, except its in Victoria and Im Brisbane based. Thanks again though.

Ill keep hunting...

[shibui]

Sorry mate, Info about the yamadori workshop not just for you. Many others will be viewing this thread and may be interested. Should have said that in the post