Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

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Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by TimS »

I am starting this topic having already potted up all the Japanese Maples that will germinate from this experiment, so forgive me if this is a little back to front or things jump around. I have an Instagram 'casualbonsai' where all images from the very beginning are if anyone wants to check out the full process with photos.

Japanese Maples have long been a favourite tree of mine, before i even considered bonsai, so when i began studying horticulture at the start of last year i decided it would be a good idea to grow some from seed. I had read that germination rates were very low (i failed to realise that rates are actually pretty good from fresh seed) and went about collecting seed from every tree i came across in my travels of which the vast majority were the weeping dissected leaf kind hence virtually all have that type of leaf. By the time i was ready to stratify and get them into seed trays i had collected 1500 seeds thinking i might get 50 from them if i was lucky. After soaking them in water about half were viable. At this stage i had not twigged that 50% viability was well above the 20% maximum i had read about before starting.

Using a couple of basic seed trays with covers you pick up from local nurseries, and a mix of 50:50 premixed Seed Raising Mix and Perlite with a thin layer of vermiculite over the top. I experimented with covering one and leaving the lid off the other. It was not long before i saw the first cotyledons appearing in the covered tray and this caused much excitement. I knew i was going to get at least one tree for my effort. More and more started popping up and before long i knew i had seriously misunderstood the viability rates as the entire tray was full of seedlings. It would turn out later that 200 or so came from this one tray alone.

The hunt for tubes was well underway and i was fortunate my uncle donated me 150 standard tubes, and a colleague donated me about 500 1 inch tall round tubes to get me out of my fix for the time being and potting up began. Through necessity to create space for more seedlings to pot up i had to pot up the seedlings earlier than i would have liked, as soon as i saw the first true leaves starting to open rather than once they had fully opened. Despite this my losses have been minimal and largely only very weak seedlings that were struggling even in a covered seed tray in a warm, sheltered position.

As of now the count is 370, though some look like they won't last so conservatively i think 350 is about how many i will end up with. With the need for space for the seedlings all my bonsai have had to be moved onto the lawn area for now and i genuinely don't know what i'm going to do with 350 Japanese Maples.

Next time i won't collect so many seeds :palm: and i will collect from trees with the traditional maple shaped leaf rather than the weeping dissected leaf. Lesson learned but it won't stop me growing more maples from seed in the future. From here on i will track the progress and see if there is any difference in strength or habit between seedlings i with the red or green leaves, as well as those with more unusual leaf shapes.

Photos are as of today, so plenty of true leaves have emerged on the first to germinate. Lots of variation between leaf shape and colour as to be expected from seed growing but it has been great fun. Now just need to work out where the hell they will all go once they are ready for six inch pots!

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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by Keels »

Wow i thought i had a lot of Japanese maple seedlings. Nice Instagram as well :tu:
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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by shibui »

Good work Tim.
As you have discovered, germinating these is not the problem. In my experience the problems start later.

Weeping palmatum varieties just don't seem to grow to well on their own roots. Not sure what the problems are but I generally lose about half the seedlings during the first growing season. The following spring most of the remaining seedlings fail to come into leaf or wilt and die soon after budding. After many years and many attempts I only have 1 weeping palmatum seedling still growing on its own roots. I got so frustrated with the failures that I started grafting pieces of the seedlings onto standard palmatum as soon as they were large enough to handle. At least that way I can keep them alive long enough to assess their characteristics. A few others I have talked to have had slightly better survival rates but I don't know anyone who has had more than a few survive on their own.

Good on you for making the attempt and :fc: hoping that you have a better result with these ones you are growing.
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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by TimS »

Thanks for checking it out Keels, i've followed you too!

Shibui yeah i have heard they are not strong on their own roots, I'm sure i will loose many but that's probably not a bad thing as i'll get some space back to put my actual bonsai in. One of my family friends had a seedling from one of their weepers pop up and it came out into leaf this year again well so at least i have one to play with if it all heads south! I also have what i assume is an atropurpueum about 1m tall on its on roots in the garden but i didn't grow that from seed so I've no idea how they got it to do so well. Live and learn, i'll give it a go and see what comes of it anyway! Thanks for giving me the heads up so i won't get too concerned if they all die off on mass!

I actually prefer the straight species Japanese Maple for bonsai, so in future i will try to specifically collect straight species which will hopefully do better.
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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by shibui »

There's one upright variety with dissected leaves called Seryu. Not common but keep an eye out for one. Seedlings are quite hardy and fast growing though, unlike the weepers, only a small proportion of seedlings retain the highly dissected leaves.We have a couple in the garden here. If you can't find seed I'm happy to send some down next autumn - you should have some space by then......
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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by Ryceman3 »

Awesome job! I look forward to watching these... I hope you can get a good percentage over the line, that’s a pretty massive project - I know what your talking about when it comes to space issues, I’m going to worry about that obvious issue when I get to it with my pines. All I can say really is great effort so far, keep at it! :yes:
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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by Raging Bull »

If you have too many viable ones of the split leaf variety surviving you can always offer to sell them on this blog, as long as you mention that the survival rate is not high. I'm sure you'll still have quite a few takers. Shibui regularly sells bare rooted seedlings in winter when they are dormant and ship well. I got 30 trident maples from him and 29 survived. He may tell you the best way to ship them if you ask him nicely ;) . Hope you don't mind me mentioning this, shibui :whistle: .
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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by TimS »

Yep i know seryu shibui, some of the seedlings may have come from that variety but i couldn't swear to what they all came from in the end. Just have to wait and see what happens with them all over the next 12-18 months. On a side note, do you have experience with how Shideshojo goes on its own roots? I air=layered a branch off one i have in the garden last year and so far it seems to be going well having come out strongly this year so i am considering doing more air-layers from it for its spring colour.

Ryceman well i know not to blame myself now if they don't survive! If nothing else it has been interesting to see how good the actual germination rate is, and it's cost me nothing more than the potting mix to do it. If a couple survive and grow on well i'll consider myself paid off for my investment haha. I have far too many trees for what little space i have, and i have plans for air-layers in the dozens this spring as well so the space issues will be compounded if they all take. I'm looking forward to watching your pine project, i don't think i have the patience for pines personally so i applaud you for taking it on! There is always space to be found somewhere and somehow is what I've learned!

Thanks Frank, given their suicidal tendencies i might hang onto the survivors longer than i first thought just to make sure. I would hate to sell them only for them to die on the person. If they get started and flush out well next spring then i'll look at selling some from then onward just to be safe. From next year i'll concentrate on straight species Japanese Maple and maybe not quite so many just to make my life a little easier!
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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by shibui »

Shindeshojo is one of the many that I do not have up here so I can't give any specific advice save to say that most varieties seem to grow fine if you can get them to root. A few of the dwarf types are notoriously difficult to layer. If it has worked once then it is definitely worth trying again.
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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by TimS »

Alright thanks, i'll try to set a few more on it then! I got my shishigashira to air-layer as well which i was very happy about as they seem to be a bit finicky from what i could read.
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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by MJL »

Crumbs! Great effort ... I am sure you'll be able to offload the seedlings on this forum or ...on eBay. It seems to me that if you sell them on eBay and call them 'rare' - noting that they are baby bonsai... you might be able to get a $100 a seedling. :lol:

On a serious note - and forgive my ignorance here - I thought the following observation might be of interest. I have a Acer Palmatum (not sure what variety - just looks 'normal') in my garden. It self seeds around 20-30 seedlings each year; those seedlings survive well; I simply carefully pull them, cut the tap root and bang 'em in seed raising mix. Interesting, in my garden, I also have a variety called 'Sangu Kaku' that had attractive red/pink bark on the new growth. I also have a weeping 'dissectum' variety. Both these latter varieties do not self seed; I have not seen a seedling from these in 15 years! Yet - the 'standard' variety seems to seed like a weed.

Yet, You seem to have seeded a whole heap of dissectum types!

Not sure what any of this means but thought it worth noting.

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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by TimS »

MJL Sometimes i think that using the word 'Bonsai' is comparable to using the word 'wedding' in so far as the price of everything jumps about 10x what it would be without being linked to it. Whether it is trees, seeds, pots or any other paraphernalia adding 'bonsai' to the description seems to triple the price.

There seems to be a number of cultivars that are infertile and will not produce seed, Coral Bark/Sango Kaku as you say among them, while others will produce seed whether the dissectum type leaf or the traditional palm shaped leaf. What it is specifically that renders some infertile while others remain fertile though i need to look into more to understand better.

My method was very simple, if i saw a tree with seed on it i collected that seed. Simply because more trees with the dissected leaf being in seed around my area than the traditional leaf i have collected a huge number of those.

On a side note if anyone has the acer palmatum variety Arakawa/ Cork Bark Japanese Maple they are willing to sell then let me know. I'm very keen to get one but the only one i have ever seen at a nursery was not for sale sadly.
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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by MJL »

Perhaps give Conifer Gardens Nursery a call. They are up in Sassafras and have a huge variety of Japanese Maples. If they don’t have the one you’re after - they might know who does.

PS - re: Weddings - don’t get me started.... re: Bonsai - when a tree is truly art; nurtured and cared for year upon year - then the value is emotive and is in the eye of the beholder and the artist can realise full value .... but to cut some roots, bang a tree in a pot and then just up the price - that’s not flash. Still ... buyer beware I guess.


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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by TimS »

I will give Conifer Gardens a call to see, i think if anyone grows it or may know someone who does it will be them.

Here are a few of the odd genetic variations in leaves i have noticed so far as more of the seedlings reach true leaf form

Looks more like sage leaf than Japanese Maple leaf
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3 cotyledons and 3 true leaves. From what i read they either grow out of this habit quickly or do not survive so wait and see on this guy
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I threw the "non-viable" seed that floated after soaking into the garden and it turns out they were actually viable so here is another 3 cotyledon maple growing in the garden. Hopefully i don't get another 200 maples growing in the garden now :palm:
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Interesting to see the differences and follow if they actually grow on from here or not strong enough to.
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Re: Seed growing Japanese Maple Experiment

Post by shibui »

Sangu kaku is fertile and the seeds will grow. A good proportion of the seedlings even retain the red bark characteristics. One plant seller at our local markets grows them from seed and sells them as coral bark maple :palm:

All Japanese maple vars that I have tried from seed have germinated. I suspect than you don't see seedlings in the garden because those types produce less vigorous seedlings which die off before they get large enough to notice.
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