Giant Trident

[Albo]

Hi All,
I have been looking for a larger Trident for a while so when this beast came up at a good price I couldn’t resist.
It was too big to fit in my car so had to trim it down.

I’d love to hear some opinions at to what to do with it and at what times?
I’m thinking first is to get it into a deep bonsai pot which I got already in the photo. It’s 60cm diameter. Repot end of August? FYI I’m in Sydney near parramatta.
But in the meantime leave it be or could I start some work?My other tridents are still actively growing shoots in my climate. It might flush out again.

I love the base and trunk.
I figure I’ve got two options. Either pick one of the two trunks for a single trunk design or go with a twin trunk design.
I’m leaning towards the twin trunk option.

It has a third large stub of a trunk midway that I figure I could work down and leave as a hollow or try to heal over.

Branching is pretty vertical. Should I just cut everything off and start again?

Any opinions around styling or timing please chime in.
I’d hate to do disservice to this tree through ignorance.
Thanks in advance for responding.

[Albo]

This is what I had in mind as a twin trunk. I think the structure that is there already would work well with this goal in mind.

[PeachSlices]

thats a baby trident

a local nursery to me had 10 or so fused tridents and some were 1m across trunks.

I'm lucky to own the smallest one, its still pretty big. i'll get pics up once it loses its leaves.

Get your carving tools out, get rid of as few more branches and start with fresh new growth.

Cheers Simon

[shibui]

Not sure I could pull off twin trunk with this tree. The fork is too high even with carving and the existing 2 trunks above are too close in thickness to look good IMHO but if you feel you can do it feel free to go ahead and try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

When to start dose not depend on time of year or size of the trunk. When was it potted last? I assume at least last winter. Tridents recover very quick after massive root reduction and I often start working them by mid summer following dig from the grow beds but it really depends on how the individual tree recovers from the trauma of transplant.
Looking at the growth on this one I guess it has been a year or 2 since the initial transplant so you could start some work.
Chances are you will need to start all branches from scratch. Upright branching with little taper is NOT what bonsai needs. Long internodes are not conducive to good ramification so almost all field grown tridents need to be restarted to get good branching and good ramification. The sooner you start the sooner you will have a bonsai. That said, late autumn pruning can result in new shoots that won't go dormant in winter. I've had that and there does not seem to be any long term problem but I would sooner have the tree respond to seasons normally so I'd probably wait to spring to chop branches.
You may still be frustrated that early spring regrowth will be very strong with long internodes. Many times I've had to do another complete chop after the initial strong spring shoots before I get shoots that are worth retaining.

All the best with this monster but I still have trouble working out why people equate 'big' with 'good' when talking bonsai.

[Albo]

thats a baby trident

a local nursery to me had 10 or so fused tridents and some were 1m across trunks.

I'm lucky to own the smallest one, its still pretty big. i'll get pics up once it loses its leaves.

Get your carving tools out, get rid of as few more branches and start with fresh new growth.

Cheers Simon

I’ll look forward to seeing those pics. Must weigh a tonne.

[Albo]

Not sure I could pull off twin trunk with this tree. The fork is too high even with carving and the existing 2 trunks above are too close in thickness to look good IMHO but if you feel you can do it feel free to go ahead and try. Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

When to start dose not depend on time of year or size of the trunk. When was it potted last? I assume at least last winter. Tridents recover very quick after massive root reduction and I often start working them by mid summer following dig from the grow beds but it really depends on how the individual tree recovers from the trauma of transplant.
Looking at the growth on this one I guess it has been a year or 2 since the initial transplant so you could start some work.
Chances are you will need to start all branches from scratch. Upright branching with little taper is NOT what bonsai needs. Long internodes are not conducive to good ramification so almost all field grown tridents need to be restarted to get good branching and good ramification. The sooner you start the sooner you will have a bonsai. That said, late autumn pruning can result in new shoots that won't go dormant in winter. I've had that and there does not seem to be any long term problem but I would sooner have the tree respond to seasons normally so I'd probably wait to spring to chop branches.
You may still be frustrated that early spring regrowth will be very strong with long internodes. Many times I've had to do another complete chop after the initial strong spring shoots before I get shoots that are worth retaining.

All the best with this monster but I still have trouble working out why people equate 'big' with 'good' when talking bonsai.

Thanks Shibui,
The nursery owner told me he’s had it four years. I will ring and find out from him when it was last repotted. I’ll be sure to ask that of future purchases.
I think I should take your advice and wait till spring for hard cut back to restart better branching.

Could/should I cut back the large short stub of a trunk at the front now?

If I were to remove one of the main trunks which would you keep?
I’ll keep both trunks for now and think on it over the coming months but would appreciate your opinion regardless.

If it has been at least a year since last repot should I repot it into the bonsai pot late August this year? I don’t need it to get any bigger.

Regards,
Al

[shibui]

Looking at the tree 4 years sounds about right for last repotting. That means you should be able to do any work as roots will be well established now.
No problem removing or carving out the large stub now. I'm currently working on tridents as I find the time and will continue through to mid winter.
Regardless of when last repot was, moving it into a smaller training pot in spring is a good move. Not so much to restrict size but to help restrain any new shoots as they develop. You'll need new branches with shorter internodes to help build good ramification on your developing branches. Restricted root should help with that.

Not sure I would go to the extent of removing one or other of the large branches. That's a drastic step to take, will leave a very large scar, could impact on an entire side of that tree and I can't see the tree having good balance afterward given the roots are well established for the current vertical trunk so altering trunk angle is now really difficult or very long term.
I suspect the best option with this is to work towards a broom style tree with 2 main branches. The example you posted is probably more broom than twin anyway (not that style name is all that important). Whether you include the shari like the example below or just a hollow (uro) where the big stub is will be something to consider as you work on the tree over the next few years.
You may be able to get one of the large branches to grow a bit and restrain the other to get some more difference in thickness to improve the look but that will take many years at this stage. Initially I'd probably concentrate on disguising the problem (if it is a problem) with some branching or foliage.

[Albo]

Looking at the tree 4 years sounds about right for last repotting. That means you should be able to do any work as roots will be well established now.
No problem removing or carving out the large stub now. I'm currently working on tridents as I find the time and will continue through to mid winter.
Regardless of when last repot was, moving it into a smaller training pot in spring is a good move. Not so much to restrict size but to help restrain any new shoots as they develop. You'll need new branches with shorter internodes to help build good ramification on your developing branches. Restricted root should help with that.

Not sure I would go to the extent of removing one or other of the large branches. That's a drastic step to take, will leave a very large scar, could impact on an entire side of that tree and I can't see the tree having good balance afterward given the roots are well established for the current vertical trunk so altering trunk angle is now really difficult or very long term.
I suspect the best option with this is to work towards a broom style tree with 2 main branches. The example you posted is probably more broom than twin anyway (not that style name is all that important). Whether you include the shari like the example below or just a hollow (uro) where the big stub is will be something to consider as you work on the tree over the next few years.
You may be able to get one of the large branches to grow a bit and restrain the other to get some more difference in thickness to improve the look but that will take many years at this stage. Initially I'd probably concentrate on disguising the problem (if it is a problem) with some branching or foliage.

I’m pretty comfortable with all that advice you’ve laid out. I think it’s a good approach making the best of what’s there.
I understand it’s probably not your cup tea but thanks for taking the time to lay everything out especially timing. I know you are very good with Tridents (and pretty much everything) I’ve seen your website. I Hope to be able to visit your nursery one day.

In regards to creating a hollow I don’t think I’d extend a Shari like in that example photo.

I think I see the error in my terminology. Twin trunk would divide lower down.
So my “trunks” divide higher up the tree so are regarded as branches? That about right?

So all in all I think I’ll chase that broom style.

This is the only monster I’m planning to have in my collection. But we all need a little bit of monster sometimes.

I’ll put up photos as I progress.

Thanks again
Al

[Kevin]

In regards to creating a hollow I don’t think I’d extend a Shari like in that example photo.

Hello Albo,

When I look at your photos, I see the bark lifting and starting to fall away, indicating the wood underneath has died.This is visible in the main trunk from the fork to the ground, also the right fork branch appears to be suffering from die-back too. While I cannot see the back branch (left fork) very well, the bark around the stumpy end also appears loose.

If my eyes are seeing this correctly then extensive carving appears to be the only option, which would a create a smaller trunk and branches.

The carving is only going to increase interest and create better taper, especially around the stumpy ends.

I may be wrong, but I think there is a considerable amount of dead wood in your Maple that will require some thought when styling.

Kevin

[shibui]

Well spotted Kevin. I had not looked that close at the trunk but now you point it out I can see what appears to be wrinkled bark and vaguely lower than adjacent healthy bark which indicates that section died a year or 2 ago. It has just taken this long for the bark to pull away from the wood and show up.
If Albo gently peels off some of those bark flakes I think the wood underneath will be brown and hard. If that is the case, you'll need to follow the dead section out and down to see just how far it extends. In this case, that is going to dictate how much shari you'll have rather than your personal preference.

For those watching this thread, this is reasonably common for maples. After a large trunk has been suddenly chopped, parts of trunk and sometimes a few roots right below the cut can die off.

[TimS]

Yep as Shibui says, have seen the dead sections before on maples that have had larger (i'm thinking 1/2 wrist thickness and upwards) branches cut back hard in one go to a single shoot. I would say frequently the side of the trunk that doesn't have the branch or shoot on it will die back beyond the live shoot and result in half the branch being dead while the other side with the shoot/ branch is alive.

No necessarily the end of the world provided you like your maples to have large sections of shari. To me it looks likely it extends (or will have to be carved) from the top of the right-hand main branch all the way down to the first fork in the trunk. You might be able to use a drill to put a central hollow down the middle of it it out so as to retain the shape of the dead section on that right hand branch, then drill a drainage hole lower down near the main fork for the water to run out, and then gently carve in some weathered looking striations and jaggard sections to the top so as to make it look more like natural damage? The dead section, if it is that large, will always look quite obvious so for my mind it's better to own it than try to hide it.

From where i sit the name of the game would be to at least make it look less like large trunk chops and a little more like natural damage that may happen to an old tree over time. First step is to find out exactly what is alive and what is dead before launching into it and doing something that can't be undone.

[Albo]

Thanks for all the input Guys. I have no problem getting the Mekita out and letting some wood chips fly. As mentioned it will only add interest. Those dead stubs all needed to be worked on anyway.
I’ll be careful about it and check to follow the live vein.
I’m going to have to re reread all the advice to get it straight in my head.
I’ll make an informed plan and execute.

I’ve never done anything this big before nut nothing said here has scared or worried me. It’s exciting!

[GavinG]

Just because you haven't had enough people messing with your head, here's another 2c worth.

First, it's a great find. Second, find the dead bits and work from there, as advised.

I think the right branch has some interesting movement around its cuts, but the left/back trunk looks dead straight. You might find a better tree if you cut it off (and seal it!).

Contrary to some very good advice, you might think of keeping it in a larger pot after some serious root pruning, to get the first branches thick enough to look convincing with the trunk. Then taper down fairly quickly - but this takes time.

Good luck, great score!

Gavin

[Albo]

Just because you haven't had enough people messing with your head, here's another 2c worth.



All advice and opinions welcome and appreciated.

[Albo]

Few more pictures from different sides and angles.I took the first step of removing that big stub as that was always going anyway. Where those three main branches joined had created a well that was collecting water and debris. So bringing that back portion down so it can drain has created a bit of a heart shape. I can get rid of that overtime as I see how it callouses.

I’ll work on bringing down the stubs on the 2 main branches in coming weeks.

Just so everyone is aware, all the branch on the tree are live. I had to cut back a lot just to fit it in my car. I wasn’t worried about cutting back as I knew most of the branching needed to go and be restarted anyway.

I understand there is some question about the flaky bark and dead/live areas. Is it not the habit of older Tridents to flake like that? Where the bark has lifted in a few areas the bark underneath is an orange colour. I made some cuts into the wood, White wood underneath.

The heart stub had a bit of dark wood top right that was clearly dead but 95% was white.
I just want to be careful I don’t mistakenly remove live areas through my own ignorance and miscommunication.

Was my first time removing a stub like that so I hope it looks at least satisfactory to those more experienced here?