Time to renovate an old trident group

[shibui]

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When the leaves dropped and I started to do the usual winter trim on this older trident group I was shocked to see how much the tops of some trunks had swelled.
The photos don't seem to really show the extent of the thickening I'm seeing in person but it is there.

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It is always hard to see details while the trees have leaves but I don't remember any signs of this when I trimmed last winter.
Now that I look harder I can see why they have swelled. In an attempt to get well ramified tops I have left quite a few small branches close together near the tops of the trunks. Most of you will be aware that branches close together have capacity to overthicken that part of a branch or trunk. I'm pretty confident that this is proof of that concept.

The question is what to do about it now that it has happened.
The trunks of this group are quite long and skinny - the result of rushing to reach 'finished' stage while they were young and not really knowing how to prune properly way back then. There's no doubt the whole group could be shortened and look better.
The more difficult question is where to chop.
With younger trees it would be relatively easy to chop the swollen tops and wire up a branch as replacement leader but these trees are all over 40 years old now. That means the branches, despite still being quite thin, are also old and very stiff. I tried bending one and can probably get a little movement but not as much as I would like.

Looks like I will have to make the chops, wire and bend new tops as best I can and hope for additional new shoots where those branches won't do what I need.

[Keep Calm and Ramify]

Would you utilise the tops for mame? 40 years is commendable!

[KIRKY]

Nice forest Neil, personally I would thin out the top and keep them very short for a few seasons and allow the middle and lower branches to extend. Even look to keeping one or two of the lower extensions as a bit of a sacrifice on each tree.
I’m not suggesting a huge sized sacrifice as it would create too big a scar. Best ones to keep are the ones growing under/down the underside of the branches. (The downward growth we would normally remove) this world balance the growth over a couple of years without any major/drastic cuts to the top. It’s all about balance.
Cheers
Kirky

[dansai]

It looks like you have places to cut back to on all the pictures you posted, with better taper and removing the swollen areas. I don't have trees this age so only can provide vague ideas. The issue I would be concerned about would be just transferring the swelling/issues further down the trunk. The areas you focussed on seem to have swelling from callus as well as being the tops of trees where growth has been strong. I would be definitely interested in what you decided to do and what you would recommend.

[SuperBonSaiyan]

the result of rushing to reach 'finished' stage while they were young and not really knowing how to prune properly way back then. There's no doubt the whole group could be shortened and look better.

What have you learned through this process, and if you were to advise someone starting nowish - how do you prune properly on a group like this?

From what I can see, you've followed the rule of 2 - which is all I really know about pruning at this stage.

To take a guess - would you space the branches further apart? So that when they thicken, the branches are further away - leading to less localised thickening?

Very nice group.

[Daluke]

Regular pruning is the key - cut and replace leader.

Everything fattens up eventually.

There’s a good video online about maples from bonsai northwest. Treeman’s presentation and posts on maple ramification is a good start.

Hopefully Shibui shared his secrets in a reply in this thread too.

[shibui]

Apologies for the slow reply to this. Today was the first sunny day for several weeks and I've also ben busy on other things.

It looks like you have places to cut back to on all the pictures you posted, with better taper and removing the swollen areas. I don't have trees this age so only can provide vague ideas. The issue I would be concerned about would be just transferring the swelling/issues further down the trunk. The areas you focussed on seem to have swelling from callus as well as being the tops of trees where growth has been strong. I would be definitely interested in what you decided to do and what you would recommend.

There are definitely plenty of side branches to chop back to. There are even some growing in desirable directions. The big issue I see is those branches are all nearly horizontal which is great for branches but not so good as leaders. Did I mention I tried to bend one up but it snapped like a match? The branches are all old and brittle after years of trimming and regrowth. Horizontal tops will not be so much of an issue for the shorter trunks. That's often how trees in the shad grow - up and then out. Unfortunately the tallest tree also needs to have the top removed. There the side ways top will not be so easily disguised.

Kirky's suggestion for thickening the lower trunks to match the upper sections has some merit and I have used it in the past when some of the outer trees got thicker than the tallest ones. Not convinced these trunks will thicken enough lower down now they are older so I have elected for the top reductions.

What have you learned through this process, and if you were to advise someone starting nowish - how do you prune properly on a group like this?
From what I can see, you've followed the rule of 2 - which is all I really know about pruning at this stage.
To take a guess - would you space the branches further apart? So that when they thicken, the branches are further away - leading to less localised thickening?

To take the last point first, I think you have hit the nail on the head. The smaller branches I have used for the apex sections of these trees have been wat too close together. It makes for a great winter silhouette and a great crop of small leaves in the canopy but it has come back to bite me on this group and threatening to do the same on the other large trident group. I plant to thin out more in future, leaving more space between the small upper branches on each trunk. Time will tell whether that's the correct approach.

As far as rule of 2 I'm afraid I have not been entirely diligent. There are places where 2 and occasionally 3 branches have been left growing from the same place and a few spots where I haven't been able to decide which opposite to remove. All that adds to this problem.

When starting any tree I now know that long internodes are not my friend. It may seem fine to retain some just to help build the height or get a branch a bit longer. You won't even notice the long, straight sections until they have thickened a bit and by then it is often too late to try again. Sometimes better to go backwards in order to get a better result going forwards.

For better or worse, here's what I've done this year.

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I have often said that layering is overused in bonsai. In many cases we are just making one bad tree into 2 bad trees. Layering would defer the result for 6 months or a year and if the resulting new trees are not good what's the point?

[KIRKY]

Those bits you took off Neil are much bigger in your hand than I thought. Agree with your choice to remove them.
Cheers
Kirky

[Ryceman3]

I actually like the way it turned out after the work shibui. I think you did well in your selections of where to cut back.
Sure, there is a lot of dramatic direction in the apices of each individual tree right now, but that will soften off with new growth and I quite like the way it emphasises the uniformity in the composition… all trees on the right heading right, all trees on the left heading left etc.
Sometimes what appears to be an issue can turn out to be a blessing maybe?

[TimIAm]

It's hard to tell from a photo, but is there a reason you didn't cut lower to try and improve taper?

Would it not be possible to cut where I've drawn the red line and wire up the branch that the red line sits behind as a new leader.

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My assumption being that the new leader will also produce future side branches.

[TimS]

It's hard to tell from a photo, but is there a reason you didn't cut lower to try and improve taper?

Would it not be possible to cut where I've drawn the red line and wire up the branch that the red line sits behind as a new leader.

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My assumption being that the new leader will also produce future side branches.

Honestly for me if i have a 40 year old tree or group, and i do have a couple, I'm not going to still be doing drastic reductions just to improve taper. In chasing an ideal you lose character IMO. Not to mention if you go and look at any forest in nature the one thing you will see a conspicuous lack of is taper.

Id rather the knobs, knuckles, and lack of taper here in this group than 1 or more trees cut hard down that need another 40 more years to regrow.

I can see why Neil did remove the tops, but equally i'd have accepted it being left as it was too and perhaps some very select branch removal higher up to reduce the vigor up there and slow thickening that way. Either way, beautiful group

[shibui]

equally i'd have accepted it being left as it was too and perhaps some very select branch removal higher up to reduce the vigor up there and slow thickening that way. Either way, beautiful group

I understand that groups, especially tall, straight trees don't need to have lots of taper but a couple of those tops were way past being OK. The height had also been bugging me for a few years but I had accepted it. 2 problems together was just too much.
I am planning to thin and reduce vigour on the other group but leaving the height. It hasn't thickened to the same extent but looks like it might not be far away if I leave it go as is.

[TimS]

Fair point Neil, always hard to judge scale in photos, and the important thing is that you were not happy with where it was at and needed to bite the bullet

[Hanro]

I see a lot of conflict in this setting now, as though it is 2 forests. The right hand side ( especially the centre trees ) should be more in sync with the left as this is the movement from right to left IMHO.