Pistacia Chinensis

[mickaus]

Hopefully I have got the name right this time

Anyway thanks to the generosity of Leigh from: http://www.ledanta-bonsai.com.au

I have now got myself something to work with

This photo was taken last weekend, after I had cleaned it up a bit and given it a good dose of Seasol:

IMG_0372.jpg

The advice I have been given is to get the tree healthy and then cut it back to the red line shown on the photo below

IMG_0372 cut.JPG

So my question is should I be cutting it this weekend? and if so is the red line too far, I'd really rather not kill it.
Also what would be the best indication that the tree is in "good health"?'

Thanks

[Damian Bee]

Hi Mickaus,

I have not ever seen a Pistachio as Bonsai, is there any growing taking place at the moment?
If so the shoots below should take off when you cut it back. But perhaps it is better to wait a little until you get some more response before you do the chop.
I would certainly like to be around that tree when it is producing nuts

[BirchMan]

Cool, i have a stock plant of this species in much the same stage as yours Mick. I was planning to leave it til next winter to do a chop, since the trunk on mine is just about finished.

There's a pic of a great finished tree floating around somewhere..

[Ron]

...I have not ever seen a Pistachio as Bonsai,...

Some great pics on Google. Check out the one about 2/3rds of the page down:

http://www.bonsaihunk.us/info/Lo.html

They get great colour in Autumn:

[mickaus]

Wow that one from 1999 is amazingly beautiful I doubt I will be making something of that caliber with this tree...

But who knows... with another tree and in 50 years maybe

[Ron]

..But who knows... with another tree and in 50 years maybe

Your great-grandchildren will love you for it.

[LLK]

(Geez, Leigh....... What kinda bonsai do you have in mind?)
Hi Mickaus,
I have seen a couple of nice Chinese pistache bonsai, but not often, and I can't say I'm crazy about the one shown by Ron. In the garden this tree is absolutely spectacular in Autumn, with its brilliantly scarlet leaves. For more info see http://www.ask.com/wiki/Chinese_Pistache As bonsai it isn't ideal, because of the large pinnate leaves. ([url]Pinnate: http://www.answers.com/topic/pinnate [/url])
To become a believable tree, it will have to be grown tall (and not untidy as on the photo above!), even if you manage a considerable reduction of the leaves.
There is a technique for reducing this type of leaves, which is applied to the mountain ash (Sorbus), for example. When the leaves have matured, you cut off all the leaflets on the main leaf bar the first pair, and you keep doing this consistently.
Personally I wouldn't cut back the trunk as far as indicated, but shorten it some and then let the tree grow and branch
extensively, while reducing the leaf size. Count on it really taking time. All a bit vague, I know. Maybe other people have better ideas. Just don't treat this tree like you would a Chinese elm or a trident maple.

Lisa

[mickaus]

Fair enough, thanks for the advice guys.

From what has been said I think I will leave it for a little bit longer before giving it the chop. Also from what I have been reading perhaps I should wait until winter and do it then to promote rampant growth in the spring... or is this a really horrible idea?

Also I have been looking into the method you described for reducing leaf size but cant find any solid information on it.

Are you suggesting that I should cut off whole stem as indicated in the pic below, or should I just take the leaves?

leaf.JPG

Sorry for the silly questions but also should I do this all over the tree at once or in stages as this would reduce a lot of leaf mass?

Once again thanks for all the advice

[LLK]

You do it over the whole tree, just as you pictured it, taking off the leaflets and the central nerve, except for the pair closest to the point of attachment. It's really quite a well known technique, but I wonder if it could be replaced by total defoliation. I know that Grant uses that on the Ash, with good results.
Cutting back the trunk and branches can very well be done while the tree is dormant, say in late winter. Best seal the cuts afterrwards.

Lisa

[mickaus]

Thanks for the clarification Lisa.

I will do just that and post up some pics close to spring time

[MattA]

Hey Mick,

Nice little starter there and lots of differeing advice on which way to go with it. That is up to you....

I know many growers who use the leaf cutting technique shown by Lisa, however I feel the tree no longer looks like what it is. No matter how well it is done you will always see a brown bit at the cut end & it does nothing to reduce the size of leaflets just reduces the volume created by a leaf.

It is better to work solidly towards ramification, the more branching, the more leaves, the more leaves, the less energy for the tree to devote to any one set.. thereby reducing there size.

I grow several large pinnate & bipinnate leaved trees and get good reduction by restricting the amount of water & food given during spring and each subsequant growth flush. Letting them dry a bit more than normal between waterings & holding back on the food until new growth is well away.

For my Jacaranda's it has brought leaf size from over 18" to under 4" with most around 2" long and this is still a tree in development, my Toona have leaves just 2" long compared to up to 18". I also had a Rhus and over the course of a few years of applying this method achieved leaves of around 2", I intend working my new Rhus even harder once I have built the basic framework.

This gives smaller leaflets yet still retains the natural shape of the trees leaves.. to me a Jacaranda wouldnt be one without those complete lacey leaves.. not just a stub with only 2 of its secondary lines. Neither would a Pistachio look like a Pistachio any more if it was reduced to only 2 leaflets.

Matt

[LLK]

MattA. wrote:

I know many growers who use the leaf cutting technique shown by Lisa, however I feel the tree no longer looks like what it is. No matter how well it is done you will always see a brown bit at the cut end & it does nothing to reduce the size of leaflets just reduces the volume created by a leaf.

It's supposed to be done only for the first years, after which the leaves are permanently smaller. I know people here who swore by it. However, I wonder if total defoliation like Grant does it on the big Ash in the National Collection wouldn't work better. Have you tried that, Matt? I don't doubt for a minute that you have mastered the pinnate leaf reduction, but I wonder if your technique isn't a bit risky for a beginner, or a grower who isn't too sure of how to proceed. He or she might live in a constant fear of whether they have watered or fed enough, too little or too much.
Regardless, an interesting post and worth bookmarking.

Lisa

[MattA]

MattA. wrote:

I know many growers who use the leaf cutting technique shown by Lisa, however I feel the tree no longer looks like what it is. No matter how well it is done you will always see a brown bit at the cut end & it does nothing to reduce the size of leaflets just reduces the volume created by a leaf.

It's supposed to be done only for the first years, after which the leaves are permanently smaller. I know people here who swore by it. However, I wonder if total defoliation like Grant does it on the big Ash in the National Collection wouldn't work better. Have you tried that, Matt? I don't doubt for a minute that you have mastered the pinnate leaf reduction, but I wonder if your technique isn't a bit risky for a beginner, or a grower who isn't too sure of how to proceed. He or she might live in a constant fear of whether they have watered or fed enough, too little or too much.
Regardless, an interesting post and worth bookmarking.

Lisa

Lisa,

Nothing in this art is ever permanent, you can take a mature old bonsai & put it in the ground & it will grow out towards full size. Try it.... & find out as I have.

Total defoliation is definitely the best approach with most trees, however some like the 3 I mentioned in my first post can be a bit touchy & not reshoot well or at all, more often the new growth is larger than the old. When you defoliate regularly you have to increase feeding (way beyond what most people do) to compensate for the energy lost by the tree having to produce a whole new set of leaves and monitor watering even more (a tree without leaves uses much less than the same tree in leaf and it harder to tell if it is not getting enough)

I havent mastered leaf reduction or anything else but have over the years found ways that work for me. They may appear a little harder but are actually easier for me, all it takes is being observant... Looking & listening to your trees. The worst i have had to deal with is a few wilted leaves (yes i have lots of practice but unless you start you do not get any practice) underfeeding will not kill a tree, only slow its progress and growth rates (the opposite of modern bonsai but the core of its roots)

Matt

[mickaus]

Hello again

I am planning to do the big cut on this tree sometime in the near future, probably next weekend.

Is there anything special I should be aware of? My plan is basically to go at it with a saw and then maybe seal it up. Is there something I'm missing and should I be doing anything to the roots at the same time or just leaving them alone?

Thanks.

[hawkeyes]