Japanese Black Pine longitudinal study; Collaborators needed

[Grant Bowie]

Hi Ray,

I forgot to say that you, living in Sydney, can do a late candle trim in late Feb.

You wait till the new candle growth has just about hardened off and then trim the growth( of the new candles) back to say 4 to 8 sets of needles(depending on the vigour of the tree; less vigorous leave more sets of needles). You should get new buds set within a month or two but they will not elongate before winter and be ready for spring growth.

Because you are trimming back new growth there will be little or no internal bare patch and should really kick these two trees off on a good footing for ramification and compactness.

I can't do the above technique in Canberra as the season is too short but I did used to do it 25 years ago when I lived in Sydney.

Grant.

[Ray M]

Hi Ray,

I forgot to say that you, living in Sydney, can do a late candle trim in late Feb.

You wait till the new candle growth has just about hardened off and then trim the growth( of the new candles) back to say 4 to 8 sets of needles(depending on the vigour of the tree; less vigorous leave more sets of needles). You should get new buds set within a month or two but they will not elongate before winter and be ready for spring growth.

Because you are trimming back new growth there will be little or no internal bare patch and should really kick these two trees off on a good footing for ramification and compactness.

I can't do the above technique in Canberra as the season is too short but I did used to do it 25 years ago when I lived in Sydney.

Grant.

Hi Grant,
Thanks for the information. I really appreciate the info you pass on.

Regards Ray

[rdc]

hi Grant
I have just read your thread & though it is a little late I have 3 JBP that I purchased as nursery stock & have only this year placed them in a Bonsai pots.
I am located in Adelaide & would be interested in contributing if you are still looking for for participants.
Rod

[Grant Bowie]

hi Grant
I have just read your thread & though it is a little late I have 3 JBP that I purchased as nursery stock & have only this year placed them in a Bonsai pots.
I am located in Adelaide & would be interested in contributing if you are still looking for for participants.
Rod

Hi Rod,

Keep them in good health over the summer and you can start in May on the program if you wish.

Thanks,

Grant

[Neli]

There is no much difference of growth on mine but I shall continue in the same manner with them.

[Grant Bowie]

Update.

Both no 1 (Fertilised through winter Pine) and no 2 (Not fertilised through winter pine) were decandled on December 22nd 2014.

That makes it around 100 days ago. 100 days is a figure I saw on a website being quoted as the time it takes from decandling till full growth and hardening off of the new growth forced by decandling.

So how did it go? Both trees (1 and 2) are at about the same stage but have not quite hardened off yet and turned to dark green. They set new buds, elongated as expected but the needles did not fully lengthen out and have not fully hardened off yet. Canberra has had a cool summer(second one in 8 years since I have lived here) so I would say that is the difference.

Other trees that were decandled a month earlier did fully elongate and harden off, as they had a longer warm growing season. The only memorably hot day this summer was 39 degrees at the end of October.

So my thinking here in Canberra is that if I want full advantage of the decandling process I should do it mid November to early Decemeber; otherwise about 1 in every 4 years may be too cool to get the full advantage.

How did the no 1 and no 2 trees perform compared to each other.

My opinion is that the No 1 tree(Fertilised through winter) has done better than the no 2 tree (Not fertilised through winter). It has more new candles, better colour on the older needles and the new growth is more vigorous.

I have recommenced fertilising all the pines to set them up for winter.

Some of the pines in full sun did get a bit yellow after more than 3 months of not fertilising; so I think either I need to fertilise at higher rates prior to decandling; or fertilise after decandling. I think the answer is to fertilise through winter and heavier in spring prior to decandling ( and not stop fertilising till the day of decandling rather than 4 to 6 weeks prior as recommended by growers such as Ryan. Different conditions here in Oz.

IMG_7285.jpg

IMG_7290.jpg

Grant

[Neli]

Until couple of month ago mine looked equally miserable. Very cold summer here this year. Most days 16- 19 C and I am in Africa. Will take pictures today .

[shibui]

It has been a bit hard to tell when the new shoots were fully hardened However I have decided that they have all stopped extending and have hardened off at about the same time - in the last week or so.

pine project 'As' 2015 4.JPG

pine project 'Bs' 2015 4.JPG

And, though not strictly part of the study, the seedlings....

pine project 'Cs' 2015 4.JPG

As you can see, In all cases the winter fertilised 1 trees have produced slightly longer shoots than the unfertilised 2s
Winter fertilised 1A looks far healthier than its 2 counterpart but the second pair look pretty much the same in colour and health. For quite a while the seedlings showed little difference but now the one that was fertilised over winter has slightly longer shoots.
On the strength of these results I will be fertilising all my pines and other evergreens, including natives, right through winter this year.

Are you intending to continue this trial for another year or 2 Grant or have we already produced enough info?

[Elmar]

When you both reported your results, both of you say that the fertilized subject has "slightly longer shoots".
Is that not like having longer internodes?!? Is that not counter productive to Bonsai or is the operative word "slightly" and there fire insignificant?


Cheers
Elmar

[Grant Bowie]

When you both reported your results, both of you say that the fertilized subject has "slightly longer shoots".
Is that not like having longer internodes?!? Is that not counter productive to Bonsai or is the operative word "slightly" and there fire insignificant?


Cheers
Elmar

Slightly longer shoots equals more vigour which is what we are researching and seeking.

The extra vigour may eventually produce or support more buds and growth etc which will be controlled by candle pruning and correct timing etc to produce smaller needles and shorter internodes.

It is counter intuitive but it is a good result.

Grant

[Grant Bowie]

Note.

One Melbourne grower(not in the study group) reported that a cool summer and decandling around mid December had caused extremely short needles; and another grower in country Victoria had reported very similar results to my own and did not post anything.

Grant

[Grant Bowie]

Are you intending to continue this trial for another year or 2 Grant or have we already produced enough info?[/quote]

Hi,

I would like to continue one more season and will consult with the group as to the next step.

It is almost one year since we started and we have had some good info.

If you need to repot etc go ahead. It will not affect the study as long as nos 1 and 2 are treated in similar ways except where we are experimenting.

Note.. Everyone should be fertilising in Autumn to set the tree up for winter. I personally will be fertilising my Pines throughout winter from now on.

Next experiment could be upping/doubling the fertiliser rates or frequency on Pines no 1 and leaving no 2 at standard fortnightly feedings? To be determined in consultation I think.

Grant

[Elmar]

Thx Grant,
I don't have any pines (and certainly no expertise to speak of. lol) and that was confusing my simple mind.

Once we leave Port Hedland (for cooler shores) I'd like to get into Pines as I very much like their mature trunks with the foliage!


Cheers
Elmar

[Jarad]

... Once we leave Port Hedland (for cooler shores)...

You coming to the east coast my friend? Did the family convince you?

[Elmar]

Lol, Jarad - having always been a Perth boy I had naturally assume (assume = mother of all ... Mistakes) that we would settle there.
My wife threw me a curve-ball and said outright that she doesn't knew where she wants to settle! So now I guess all things are possible! Even the east!


Boy, I need to learn to shorten my answers...


Cheers
Elmar