Pine maintenance schedule

[shibui]

At the convention Ryan Neil had a lot to say about development and maintenance of pines. I thought his maintenance schedule for black pines was the simplest i have heard. Not too much different to what some are currently practicing except summer needle removal instead of autumn as many currently do.

Others who took notes may be able to correct any errors i have made.

1. Spring: Feed well to strengthen the tree and make buds grow strongly (strong growing shoots will stimulate back buds lower on the branch)

2. Mid summer: Cut candles - later candle cutting means less time to grow new ones so new ones will be smaller with shorter needles.
reduce fertiliser a few weeks before candle cutting. Remove EVERY candle from the tree - Strong, Weak and even unopened candles - all at once. Pluck needles at the same time. Remove needles to leave all branches with equal needles to weakest branch (should be about 8-10 pairs on every shoot) Withold fertiliser until new buds form and new needles have opened and hardened (colour changes and new needles will be securely attached) - some time in autumn

3. Autumn:
Fertilise normally to strengthen the tree. Select buds - apical and tip buds will have grown strongly and kept other buds small. Remove all strong buds completely. This will shorten branches and top to give room for smaller buds behind to become the tips of branches and top of tree. Always remove multiple buds to leave just 2 at any point.

Nothing to do in winter. New needles should be significantly shorter. Back to 1 for spring.

Ryan also mentioned at one stage that the best way to smaller needles is to have many shoots. The more shoots on a given sized tree the more individual needles there will be so those needles will not need to be as large to harvest the same amount of light/ process food, etc. This is something I have been saying about deciduous trees for some time and it is not surprising to me that it applies equally to pines.

[Andrew Legg]

Hi Shibui,

I have not seen Ryan speak, but watched a video on You Tube of his, and in this one he said reduce the number of needles to equal those on the weakest significant (in the design) branch. Not the weakest branch. That may be going too far!

Cheers,

Andrew

[lackhand]

I will add that in the video of Ryan I watched (which is most likely the same one Andrew is referring to), Ryan also said not to go below 8-10 pairs of needles. So if your weakest significant branch has 6 pairs on it, the others go to 8 or 10. The weak one then has a chance to catch up, but the rest of the tree is not weakened too much.

I'm hunting for a JBP in the next few months and looking forward to trying this out. Too bad I live on the wrong continent, or I would just take a visit to Shibui. As is, I'll probably have to end up ordering from somewhere and having it posted.

[Dario]

Same video reference...when needle plucking be sure to leave some older needles on the tree as they provide hormone and are important for overall health of tree.
Cheers, Dario.

[bodhidharma]

Thanks for taking the time to post this Neil A very simple plan to be sure and makes it easy to follow the formula. Some of the formula's from old Japanese sources took a science or horticulture degree to work out.

[lackhand]

Thanks for taking the time to post this Neil A very simple plan to be sure and makes it easy to follow the formula. Some of the formula's from old Japanese sources took a science or horticulture degree to work out.

I've heard a few that even contradict each other, at least as I understand them. I like Ryan's method because its clear, and he is able to explain horticulturally why it works. It makes sense. Plus, since he has a hort degree plus all those years of training under Kimura, there is some credibility there.

[Chris H]

Ryan was clear on one other point.

There are some different theories and a few variations on similar system.
Follow whichever one of the practices you choose for a minimum of a few years. Dont chop and change between the system you have been using for just one year to another the next and then the next, just based on the latest bit of news.

It takes a few years for this approach (and any other similar variation) to take effect.

Ryans explanation is very clear for certain.

Candle cut and needle pluck
Fertilze
Bud select and needle pluck
Fertize

Repeat.

[kcpoole]

Thanks for Posting Neil, timely for my new pine I hoping steven brings tonight for me

this is not too dissimilar to Dennis Mcdermotts' process I have described here in this thread viewtopic.php?f=7&t=3207&p=35113
The main difference is that Ryan proposes to take all candles off together along with the needles, rather than dennis's method of doing them over a few weeks.

Ryans Method makes it Much simpler!

[63pmp]

Ryan also mentioned at one stage that the best way to smaller needles is to have many shoots. The more shoots on a given sized tree the more individual needles there will be so those needles will not need to be as large to harvest the same amount of light/ process food, etc. This is something I have been saying about deciduous trees for some time and it is not surprising to me that it applies equally to pines.

Maybe this is because well ramified trees have a smaller root base/mas to draw nutrients through, as opposed to a large root base/mass and only a few shoots to feed. As root mass remains fairly consistant as a tree develops.

Did Ryan give a reason for needle plucking at the same time as decandling, rather then a winter/late autumn needle plucking? I thought in his video, he suggested needle plucking when needles had set in autumn, or maybe I just remembered wrong.

regards

Paul

[Neli]

Thank You for posting this valuable info!
I have some questions...sorry newbie here.
1. Our climate is the same as yours, or at list with some areas of Australia. Can you put month to all the activities... So mid summer, will it be January?
2. How long stubs do you leave on the needles. I can see it is easy, but how does it address the balancing of energy across the tree, if all candles are cut at the same time, the same amount, and the needles too. Do you do that even if the tree has weak areas, that you want to channel more energy into?
3. I just want to be sure here. Remove them up to the old growth?
What is :
weakest significant (in the design) branch.
And sorry again maybe not for here, but I would like to ask, why does a pine branch die if it is cut and no needles left, as opposed to deciduous trees.

[Andrew Legg]

I'll answer the last two for you Neli:

3.) Pines will have some very weak branches that may be only a few cms long and have a few needles. As pines rely on their needles to draw sap up into the tree, you don't want to take too many of them off. You do however want to energy balance, so you want to bring the strong parts of the tree down to the same level as the weaker parts. I think Ryan uses the word "significant" as it would suggest that the branch has some decent strength in it.

Needles on a pine tree draw sap up into the branches. On a deciduous tree, the roots push the sap up. I don't know the scientific reasons for this, but it means that if you deneedle a pine branch it will die. It also relates to the answer above where you don't want to remove too many needles otherwise you may significantly weaken the tree.

[GavinG]

Thanks for posting, Neil - a clear explanation of a straightforward method. When he discussed the unopened bud/candles, I thought he said to nip the top off them, to stimulate auxin production, not to remove them completely, as with the other candles. Mind you, what would I know - pines take one look at me and die without delay.

His design principle was interesting - find the feature/best bit/strongest line in the tree, and sort everything else to highlight that. It's good to remember that every tree should have a focal point to it, not just an arrangement of branches. If it doesn't, keep growing it on until it does.

Gavin

[Neli]

Thanks for posting, Neil - a clear explanation of a straightforward method. When he discussed the unopened bud/candles, I thought he said to nip the top off them, to stimulate auxin production, not to remove them completely, as with the other candles. Mind you, what would I know - pines take one look at me and die without delay.

His design principle was interesting - find the feature/best bit/strongest line in the tree, and sort everything else to highlight that. It's good to remember that every tree should have a focal point to it, not just an arrangement of branches. If it doesn't, keep growing it on until it does.

Gavin

Hi Gavin,
I have been reading on this auxin thingy....it says that apart from regulating so many functions across the tree, including correlation of branch root bud relationship it suppresses the development of buds before the apex. So perhaps the auxin stop suppressing the bud development when the apical bud is cut, and the tree back buds? That I understood..
Now I have not found yet a clear explanation on how pines operate ....and why the branch dies if it is left without any needles. I can suspect it has something to do with auxin ???? but not sure.
I would really like to understand that, silly me.

Gavin, I love that bit about the focal point. Simple, but valuable.

Abdrew,
how does a pine draw sup with the needles into the tree? The part about significant, now I understood.
As far as I know, the only push the roots do is dew to the the osmotic process and that is very little. (0.2-0.3) as opposed to what is needed for the sup to raise (3) (ten times more) so most of the force that lift water up is pulling from above, due to transpiration, and negative pressure created. Some part is played also by due to the surface tension and capilary action...but small. ( I have been trying to figure this things up)
But up to now I can not figure out how pines operate, and why the branches die? what process is involved in this?
Thank you both for your kind answers.

[shibui]

Thanks everyone for the additions and corrections.

Did Ryan give a reason for needle plucking at the same time as decandling, rather then a winter/late autumn needle plucking? I thought in his video, he suggested needle plucking when needles had set in autumn, or maybe I just remembered wrong.

I don't remember a reason being given but he did stress several times this was designed to be EASY to remember and implement. Personally i cannot see any reason why needle pulling needs to be done at any particular time of year. the important part is that it needs to be done to strengthen weak parts and reduce strength in strong areas ie -balance the vigour. I think reducing needles in summer would have a stronger effect - (tree is growing) - than when done in autumn - (tree ready to rest)???

Neli: mid summer for decandling was generally accepted as mid - late December, possibly around Christmas. some growers are still checking whether earlier or later is better. Jow has long been saying that later decandling gives less time for new buds to form so they end up smaller and Ryan also mentioned this aspect.
I think Ryan meant to pull all the needles so no needle stubs left at all and I thought he also meant old and new (have not seen the video Dario??) needles to just leave somewhere around 8-10 pairs of needles on each branch/twig. Anyone else got ideas on this???

Energy is balanced by having equal amount of green on all areas. Green leaves on the tree are the solar panels that harvest sunlight and energy. Areas with less green leaves are not contributing to the tree and receive less nutrient and get weaker if left alone. By equalising the amount of needles all areas contribute equal solar energy and therefore get equal shares of nutrients from the tree and eventually balance strength (Ryan's theory???)
Pines do not necessarily die if needles are removed. I have seen black pines completely plucked and new buds do form and grow but if you remove needles from one branch only that branch cannot contribute to the tree's energy needs and will get reduced nutrients and will get weak and possibly die - same can happen to deciduous trees but may not happen as quickly.

Chris H - well remembered. I think he said that any method will work but previous shedules were too complicated for most to keep up with so they would swap too soon before seeing the results. STICK WITH ONE METHOD FOR AT LEAST SEVERAL YEARS to see positive results.

It should also be emphasised that this method is for Black pines and Red pines. Ryan put Scots, White and Mugho pines in a different category -'single flush' growth habit and require different methods.
He described JBP and JRP as 'multi flush growth habit meaning they can open a second set of buds in the same season if the first buds are removed

[63pmp]

1. Our climate is the same as yours, or at list with some areas of Australia. Can you put month to all the activities... So mid summer, will it be January?
2. How long stubs do you leave on the needles. I can see it is easy, but how does it address the balancing of energy across the tree, if all candles are cut at the same time, the same amount, and the needles too. Do you do that even if the tree has weak areas, that you want to channel more energy into?
3. I just want to be sure here. Remove them up to the old growth?
What is :
weakest significant (in the design) branch.
And sorry again maybe not for here, but I would like to ask, why does a pine branch die if it is cut and no needles left, as opposed to deciduous trees.

I'll try and answer your questions,

Seasons in Africa are the same as in Australia

The stubs left on candles after pruning are only a few millimeters long, you only cut back this years current growth. New shoots issue from the meristem that produced the candle initially. Basically when you remove all the candles at once, and the needles to 10 bundles you effectively "nuke" any imbalance in auxin production in all the branches of the tree. The roots depend on auxin strength to know how much support a branch needs (with pines each branch is supported by one root (the "live vein" of junipers is an example of this)). With all the branches producing roughly the same amount of auxin, the roots go back to a default setting, and supply each branch, no matter how strong it was, with similar nutrient levels. Hopefully, every thing is balanced, and all the new shoots grow the same. The more you do it, as in every year, the more balanced the tree becomes.

On very weak areas you do not remove the candle or any needles, this will provide a stronger auxin signal source then other treated branches, strengthening the shoot, in theory. For the shoot to get stronger the needles also need light to fuel auxin synthesis (which is the benefit of needle plucking on stronger branches) weak branches become stronger because of more light.

Weakest significant design branch, is the branch that your design depends upon, a branch you cannot afford to lose in your design, weakest as in, weak in energy. try and make all branches the same strength as this one.

When you remove all the needles and shoot tips you remove all sources of auxin. The roots just stop sending nutrients up the phloem pathway, xylem flow stops because there is no transpiration from the needles. New meristem development is slow;, some strong ones might pop and the branch then dies back to the highest adventitious shoot. If it is a weak branch there will not be enough time for a new meristem to start producing auxin before the branch dies from lack of nutrient.

Hope it makes sense, trying to condense a lot of stuff here.

Regards

Paul