Japanese Black Pine longitudinal study; Collaborators needed

[Grant Bowie]

Hi all,

I have just been reviewing information sent to me; and also digesting some discussions with other growers who did not take part in the survey.

Survey participation was a bit patchy due to; a number moving houses and being busy, one sold a tree, one had a tree die and others are very haphazard at keeping records etc.

Anyhow, Those who lived in colder climates; (Hobart, Melbourne, hills near Albury, and myself here in Canberra); found that fertilising over winter (liquid ferts) found it to be beneficial and worth continuing. The strongest result was Hobart.

Conversely a grower on North Coast NSW found it unnecessary and contra-indicated(i.e. don't do it). He said the pine he tried it on would not go dormant. I will need more information from him and will see him in 3 weeks at Bonsai By The Beach.

I did not get any participants in QLD so just had to chat with a few growers. They don't fertilise over winter or only low or zero nitrogen. They do however agree that most pines in QLD are severely under fertilised on a regular basis. I had to comment that, unfortunately, about 50% of the pines that were on display at the Gold Coast convention last year were in disastrously poor condition. This is a combination of lack of fertiliser, long growing seasons and severe pest and disease pressure.

They probably need to fertilise better during the entire growing season.

So my conclusions at the end of the first year are;
. If you are in cold or cool climate then fertilising over winter is or may be beneficial.
. Milder climates probably not necessary.
. Warmer climates it is more important to fertilise at times other than winter.

Any comments or observations welcome.

Grant

[Jow]

What were the observations regarding the second flush like? Was it as compact as if they hadn't fertilised over winter? Did it produce necks in this second flush?

[Grant Bowie]

What were the observations regarding the second flush like? Was it as compact as if they hadn't fertilised over winter? Did it produce necks in this second flush?

Hi Joe,

I didn't ask that question. My past experience would show no neck( at the rates we fertilise) in the second flush. If any body has noticed different please advise here.

I think a younger pine may put out some stretched growth but not in a mature pine.

I am going to recommend the method/program you mentioned in Adelaide. Tea bags with ferts in or fertiliser cakes etc and/or other ferts. I am waiting for a few responses before I outline this.

I think 95% of people in Australia under fertilise their pines.

Grant

[Grant Bowie]

Hi All.

After discussing and thinking about the results of the past years trial I have decided to do the following in Spring and summer 2015/2016;.

1. Fertilise all my Japanese Black Pines at the usual rate through winter. (Powerfeed and Seasol combined together at the full recommended strength).
2. Increase my fertilising rate in Springtime on both no 1 and no 2 Japanese Black Pines. This could be to fertilise with a fertiliser with a higher NPK; or fertilise at a higher rate with the existing fertilisers (double the strength or frequency); it could be fertilising with the current fertilisers at the current rate but with additional Fertiliser cakes, fertiliser Tea Bags or Osmocote in fertiliser cups. Basically a higher dose of fertiliser over springtime right up till the day of Candle Pruning.
3. Once the Full Candle Prune has been finished I will then fertilise my no 1 pines back at the usual rate with just Power Feed and Seasol; whereas I will not fertilise the no 2 pines till the new growth has hardened off (about 3 months later.)
4. In autumn;Observe the differences in health, green-ness, needle size, needle vigour, growth length, number of new branches, number of un-elongated buds, and whether there is an area of no needles(a neck?) on the new growth.

This will answer the question of whether to fertilise or not after Full De-Candling and whether or not the 3 month non fertilising period on pines number 2 is beneficial or counter productive.

If anyone living Port Macquarie or further north on the coast wishes to trial or participate I would recommend not fertilising over winter but starting with the higher rates of fertiliser in spring.

I have access to a batch of fertiliser cakes and fertiliser tea bags but I am not sure if a lot of people do or would would choose to use fertilisers of this kind anyhow. I will put up a recipe for fertiliser tea bags in a few weeks once I have assembled some of the ingredients available locally.

Grant

[treeman]

Grant, have you considered foliar feeding of pines over winter in combination with a wetting agent?
I'm not sure how available organic fertilizers will be over winter as bacterial activity is very low.
Many of my Scotts pines and Japanese white pines seem to lose colour over winter but I'm now finding that a combination of a good hydroponic fertilizer on the soil together with a high Urea foliar spray seems to be resolving the problem.
For some reason I have not found any yellowing on Black pine.
Also worth considering that too much high P feeding will inhibit mycorrhiza, although powerfeed and seasol are both very low in P.

[Grant Bowie]

Grant, have you considered foliar feeding of pines over winter in combination with a wetting agent?
I'm not sure how available organic fertilizers will be over winter as bacterial activity is very low.
Many of my Scotts pines and Japanese white pines seem to lose colour over winter but I'm now finding that a combination of a good hydroponic fertilizer on the soil together with a high Urea foliar spray seems to be resolving the problem.
For some reason I have not found any yellowing on Black pine.
Also worth considering that too much high P feeding will inhibit mycorrhiza, although powerfeed and seasol are both very low in P.

Hi Mike,

Please feel free to trial anything you like and add some comments and findings after doing so.

There are a lot of variables so i am conducting a trial using similar methods; otherwise I can't compare the results.

Mycorrhiza is a whole separate subject again and not relevant to this trial.

Grant

[Grant Bowie]

By that I mean trial side by side normal fertilising, foliage fertilising and non fertilising over winter and report the findings.

grant

[Gerard]

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I chose these two pines for the study 18 months ago because they were basically the same. I fed pine 1 through winter 2014 and did not begin to feed pine 2 until September 2014. I noted that candles on pine 1 were much stronger in Oct 2014.
Feeding and position has been identical for more than a year now, results suggest that-
1) The two trees have different characteristics
or
2) The difference in feeding is still having an effect a year later (less likely)

[Grant Bowie]

Hi all,

It is now mid November and hopefully you have all been fertilising your Japanese Black Pines over spring; and even through winter; in preparation for the Full De-candling of mature bonsai pines. We de-candle to give more ramification and shorter internodes etc. (Some people in Tasmania and Canberra have already de-candled due to the short growing seasons in their climate; and also maybe not enough fertilising?).

We need to fertilise well so the tree can withstand this stressful process.

In Europe, America and Japan it appears to be common practice to cease fertilising the pines after de-candling until the new growth has emerged, filled out and fully hardened off. The reasoning is to restrict the length the new growth as it emerges and elongates.

I found last year that after the 100 days or so it takes to fully emerge, elongate and harden off that my pines were looking a bit pale; and last year was actually a mild summer for Canberra.

SO! This year my trial will be between two pines of similar age, vigour and stage of maturity; and continue to fertilise one right through summer at a moderate rate and not fertilise the other; then compare the differences between the two.

I will de-candle in about 2 or 3 weeks time so they will be fertilised twice more in that period.

I would be interested to hear any thoughts as to what will happen in your area and then what actually happened if you follow this trial.

Happy for new participants to take part as well.

Grant

[Jow]

Hi Grant.

I have done some limited experimenting in this phase of pine growth (post candle cut) and have found feeding in this period added to candle neck length in new growth.

You may find in mature trees with many buds to spread their energies over that feeding post cut is not a huge issue but certainly on developing trees where there are few growing tips you can get big extensions on the second flush and long useless necks. I would go so far as to remove food early (3-4 weeks) on developing trees to further limit their vigor in the second flush.

Of course this becomes less and less important as tree gets bigger and bigger but if you are growing medium or shohin sized trees it is certainly worth thinking about.

I'd be keen to see if you find the same results.

My question is: Does it matter if you get some yellowing of growth prior to autumn feeding (especially if you plan to feed all winter)? Perhaps a low/no nitrogen feed might fix this without extending growth too much?

[treeman]

Hi Grant.

I have done some limited experimenting in this phase of pine growth (post candle cut) and have found feeding in this period added to candle neck length in new growth.

You may find in mature trees with many buds to spread their energies over that feeding post cut is not a huge issue but certainly on developing trees where there are few growing tips you can get big extensions on the second flush and long useless necks. I would go so far as to remove food early (3-4 weeks) on developing trees to further limit their vigor in the second flush.

Of course this becomes less and less important as tree gets bigger and bigger but if you are growing medium or shohin sized trees it is certainly worth thinking about.

I'd be keen to see if you find the same results.

My question is: Does it matter if you get some yellowing of growth prior to autumn feeding (especially if you plan to feed all winter)? Perhaps a low/no nitrogen feed might fix this without extending growth too much?

Agree with your thoughts Jow. From what I read you should discontinue feeding until the new shoots have completely hardened. It's easy enough to get colour back into them in autumn if necessary. If you want the current fertilizer to run short in the media (even if you liquid feed only) you should allow 1 month of daily watering to flush out/use up as much nitrogen as possible before you prune.

[Grant Bowie]

Hi Both,

Good points by both of you so it is worth confirming one way or other by a trial,which I will do.

I discussed with Joe that I might try no feeding, light feeding and heavy feeding to see what difference it makes.

Obviously to keep compactness on a small pine you would definitely avoid too much fertiliser; but on an older pine it may be beneficial.

Does it matter if the pines go yellow over summer? Don't know; but that is also another question to look at I suppose if we really want to understand Japanese Black Pine in our Australian growing environment and regime.

Grant

[Jow]

Look forward to seeing your results Grant.

[shibui]

Another grower recently asked whether it was time to decandle pines. I said I was waiting until mid December and he pointed out that as it was already Dec 16 It was, in fact, already mid December so i have been busy decandling over the last week.
here's the "B" team:

jbp 2012 12 1b b.JPG

jbp 2012 12 1b a1.JPG

jbp 2012 12 1b a2.JPG

jbp 2012 12 2b b.JPG

jbp 2012 12 2b a1.JPG

jbp 2012 12 2b a2.JPG

I can't find before photos for the 'A' team but here they are after a haircut

jbp 1a 2015 12 a2.JPG

jbp 2a 2015 12 2.JPG

[Grant Bowie]

Thanks Shibui,

I trimmed my Pines for the study today. 22nd December; as I noted on my labels this was the date I did them last year.

I have 3 this time. One which I will not fertilise for about 3 months, one I will fertilise normally once a month and another that I will fertilise normally every 2 weeks; and then observe the growth and health off the trees over the next six months.

They have plenty of foliage and have matured nicely the last year.

Grant