Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby Bonsaiforest » March 28th, 2016, 6:24 pm

Not sure if I missed it in this post...? but when would be the best time to bend/compress heavy branches/trunks (2-3cm thick) & are there any specific techniques that produce good results...?
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby Daluke » March 28th, 2016, 7:13 pm

Anytime is a good time.

Trees grow the most in spring and slow in winter.

To minimise costs spent and effort on doing it and maximise how long it is on for, Autumn to Winter is the best.
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby kcpoole » March 28th, 2016, 7:33 pm

It has been suggested to me that bending and heavy work be done in Autumn or winter. Spring has lots of sap flowing and that may cause the bark and cambium to de-laminate.
having said that I have done Junipers in spring with no issues.

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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby Daluke » March 29th, 2016, 8:54 am

How long after repotting would you remove needles to balance energy?
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby Charliegreen » March 30th, 2016, 12:00 pm

Daluke, what an awesome topic and u are spot on. So much info and misinformation out there from Australian JBP experts :lol: that it makes it hard to construct a clear picture of what a successful yearly regime should be.
It would be very helpful if someone with knowledge created a definitive guide to growing JBP in Australia's climatic zones and made a sticky on this website.
I fear some of the old hard heads will never agree. :whistle:

Ryan Neils info as stated is great but he focuses on Mature Trees. Every JBP i have ever seen in Aus is relatively young, still in need of major work.
What I thinks missing is a definitive guide from germination till approx 10 years.
Included in this guide could be a detailed guide to JBP grafting techniques as well. In alot of cases an essential tool in the arsenal in creating something to be proud of. I see Ryan Neil has some great youtube clips on maturity of scion to use, how many needles to leave, seasonal timing and application of tape.

Advancing the quality of Bonsai in Australia is the goal.
Last edited by Charliegreen on March 30th, 2016, 12:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby wrcmad » April 1st, 2016, 2:10 pm

treeman wrote:There are a huge number of variables and you can do all kinds of things.
I would only suggest a couple of things. I have never given winter feeding. The tree is not growing apart from a few roots so it's demand for nitrogen is very low so if it has good colour (which it should have) no food necessary for those 4 months.
Feed strongly in spring and stop after removing the first new shoots of the year. Feed very lightly or not at all until the second shoots have fully matured. Then resume normal feeding.
But my most important discovery with young developing 2 needle pines is that to achieve fantastic back budding, remove all the new seasons mature shoots in autumn not summer. (even some 2 year old shoots if there are good needles remaining on them). That way you can get buds on 2 or three years old bare wood. (the tree must be young and bursting with vigour)

I have been experimenting with Ryan Neil's regime, and his fertilising regime sounds similar to your feeding schedule outlined above.
I have achieved good back-budding using the pruning technique you outline above, but have only tried it in summer - so I will give autumn pruning a go on one of my guinea-pig JBP's this year. Thanks for the tip. :cool:
This year, I tried Ryan Neil's technique for back-budding, which involves letting the shoot above grow freely to get sap-flow going through that stem, and encourage back-budding below. Here are the results:

Here is the JBP, with last year's growth and this year's growth indicated. The section of last year's growth is circled, and a close-up shown below.

JBP1.jpg


Letting the section grow achieved back budding on nearly every fascicle of last year's growth. However, the resulting thickening may not be desirable in some cases of development.

JBP2.jpg
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby treeman » April 1st, 2016, 3:11 pm

That's a good result. Now if you pruned above those buds, they would spring into vigouressness (is that a word? :palm: ), but obviously you would need to remove all but 2 or 3 of them eventually. If you did not cut, they usually will remain very weak and many would die off as well. It all depends on what your goal is. The truth is that Black pine is such a strong willing species you can do almost anything to them and they usually respond well. The main thing is if you want shorter needles on a developed tree, prune the new shoots in summer to get budding at their bases. If you want budding further down the branch as well then prune in autumn. I believe you should not consider needle shortening until the tree is well advanced. Maybe about the 4th ramification or so?
I also feel that often so many old needles are removed that it leaves the tree rather weak for a while.
A lot of the Japanese articles on BPs can be confusing until you realise that when they say ''pinching'' they are often talking about cutting mature new shoots not breaking soft candles. I've also read articles were new mature shoots were called candles! So you need to re-read several times and look back at the pics often to work out what the hell they are on about! :reading:
Last edited by treeman on April 1st, 2016, 3:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby wrcmad » April 2nd, 2016, 3:30 pm

Thanks Treeman. Much appreciated.
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby Daluke » July 8th, 2016, 8:16 pm

Here is an article I discovered which I thought is a useful tool in understanding pines.

I'm happy to say I've been sticking to my feed heavily regime and things are looking good.

http://www.phutu.com/nine-things-you-mi ... lack-pine/
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby Rolf » July 8th, 2016, 9:24 pm

Daluke wrote:Here is an article I discovered which I thought is a useful tool in understanding pines.

I'm happy to say I've been sticking to my feed heavily regime and things are looking good.

http://www.phutu.com/nine-things-you-mi ... lack-pine/



Very good website/articles if you're a JBP enthusiast!!!! :tu: :tu:

Thanks Daluke
Nature does always better! ;)
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby beanwagon » July 14th, 2016, 11:09 pm

A good source of info i just found.

https://bonsaitonight.com/subject-index/#decandling
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby Tambrand » July 17th, 2016, 4:15 am

Someone Asked - Growing J.B.pines, No Winter.

Trinidad - 1989 - J.B.pine seed from Japan, sent a gift. Still Alive.
Followed information from Bonsai Today.

Result -

Added on seed from England, in around 93 and the more from Japan via US. Still Alive.

Grows well. Chose to follow the chap's advice in Bonsai Today and went the none massive trunk direction.

Only "problem" still learning how to get the needles to reduce.
Older trees will only candle at 1 cm or less and many nano candles.
Accidentally got one branch to do it, and have to figure what I did.

Trees are dense as needles go and have decent ramification.

Soil is mostly 5 mm builder's gravel [ silica based ] and aged compost.
Grow pots are earthenware clay, and no deeper internally than 14 cm.

Home has a rest period from Christmas until mid February - trees show signs of being dormant - temp- 20 deg.C held from say 6 p.m until often 8 a.m
Dry season, no rain from Christmas until May/June
Temperature around a max of 33 deg.C held for less than an hour March to May .
Drops to 30/25 deg.C [ held for half hour or less ]with the Rains June to November by day.

Humidity can vary from 80% to 45%.
I am in a wind channel and 70 metres up or so. Lots of breezy weather.

General comments - easy tree to grow. Fertiliser is commercial stuff Miracle-Gro , Phostrogen or Blaucorm.
I read the recommended N was 12 for pines in the US.
Applied one month after repotting.

Using Aus Bonsai article, am now using the cuttings for new trees.

Please note our Tropicals do not grow all year round. The cold / shorter day / dry weather / excess rain will all stop growth.
Laters.
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby Lane » July 18th, 2016, 9:58 am

I'm curious to what experienced black pine growers do with buds at this time of year?

Most of my pines have only one bud set ready to extend come warmer weather, however,I have a recently acquired black pine in the refinement stage that has 3-5 buds at each shoot ready in waiting for spring, should I reduce to two lateral and equal strength buds now?

Or let them extend and cut them when I candle cut late December?

I'm not sure what the previous owners technique was but none of my others have so many buds at the one point at this time of year?
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby Jow » July 18th, 2016, 10:40 am

Many buds at terminals this time of year either mean the tree is super healthy and strong or it was incorrectly decandled or pruned at a different time of year.

Personally I would reduce all terminal buds to one and try to match bud strength. Ie. weak buds in strong areas and strong in the weak parts.

You could also leave all the buds on but you may get thickening at the junction as they grow out.
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Re: Japanese Black Pine - A Seasonal Guide

Postby Daluke » July 18th, 2016, 12:22 pm

MacGuyver wrote:I'm curious to what experienced black pine growers do with buds at this time of year?

Most of my pines have only one bud set ready to extend come warmer weather, however,I have a recently acquired black pine in the refinement stage that has 3-5 buds at each shoot ready in waiting for spring, should I reduce to two lateral and equal strength buds now?

Or let them extend and cut them when I candle cut late December?

I'm not sure what the previous owners technique was but none of my others have so many buds at the one point at this time of year?


What do you mean by refinement... ?

I guess like all things, it depends what stage the individual tree is at.

If you want smaller needles maybe leave the buds so the energy of the tree is spread over a greater area.

If you want branch development, knocking out buds allows the energy to be concentrated on those areas you want it to be focussed on.

Have you got a photo?
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