Another JBP Progression

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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby melbrackstone » July 27th, 2017, 11:29 am

Cheers Matt, it's great to get so many different takes on the guidelines.

I do need to study Wabi Sabi in detail, thanks!
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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby treeman » July 27th, 2017, 12:06 pm

bunce wrote:


The masculine and feminine aspects of pots are subtle and profound, however all the principles we apply to bonsai have their roots (pardon he pun) in Wabi Sabi. Wabi Sabi is a fascinating thing to study, it gives you a different perspective on the world, not just your bonsai collection. Whats clear in the Wabi Sabi teachings is that nothing is black and white, everything is varying degrees of grey. What some consider tall, other consider short whats masculine is feminine, and what is, is not.

Hi Matt,

What you are saying rings more of the Yin and Yang to me.

I've also studied the wabi sabi concept and I think I have a pretty firm basic understanding of it. Hence, I feel pretty confident in saying that as far as modern bonsai is concerned, wabi sabi is almost non existent. Even in the general Japanese psyche we don't see it anymore. The intrusive influence of the Western world has largely taken over. This in itself is neither good or bad but pretty hard to refute. Most contemporary Japanese would have no idea what wabi sabi was even though they may have heard of it. I would be hard pressed to find a bonsai which displays wabi sabi although they do exist. Certainly none of mine do.
Happy to explore this fascinating subject further if you are interested.
Last edited by treeman on July 27th, 2017, 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby bunce » July 27th, 2017, 4:27 pm

What you are saying rings more of the Yin and Yang to me.

Hence, I feel pretty confident in saying that as far as modern bonsai is concerned, wabi sabi is almost non existent. Even in the general Japanese psyche we don't see it anymore.
[/quote]

Wabi Sabi is the defining philosophy of bonsai, and without it bonsai does not exist. The best texts I've read on bonsai, start with Wabi Sabi. The best teachings from my Oyakata were about wabi sabi, and its role in bonsai. I am prepared to say that Bonsai is the embodiment of wabi sabi. Mostly we hear about the use of the wabi sabi philosophy when talking in terms of Japanese gardens, and there is much literature on that too. But to say Wabi Sabi does not exist in bonsai anymore is just plain bonkers.

Yin and Yang are two opposing tidal forces, that cancel each other out, leaving balance. This is a Chinese philosophy that began previously to Wabi Sabi and was the founding inspiration for the father of Wabi Sabi.

Matt.
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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby treeman » July 27th, 2017, 5:08 pm

bunce wrote:Wabi Sabi is the defining philosophy of bonsai, and without it bonsai does not exist. The best texts I've read on bonsai, start with Wabi Sabi. The best teachings from my Oyakata were about wabi sabi, and its role in bonsai. I am prepared to say that Bonsai is the embodiment of wabi sabi. Mostly we hear about the use of the wabi sabi philosophy when talking in terms of Japanese gardens, and there is much literature on that too. But to say Wabi Sabi does not exist in bonsai anymore is just plain bonkers.

Yin and Yang are two opposing tidal forces, that cancel each other out, leaving balance. This is a Chinese philosophy that began previously to Wabi Sabi and was the founding inspiration for the father of Wabi Sabi.

Matt.

I detect a note of aggression in this reply. But,
Please explain, if you will, this statement....
Wabi Sabi is the defining philosophy of bonsai, and without it bonsai does not exist


And this also....
Bonsai is the embodiment of wabi sabi.


Also please explain the concept of wabi sabi the way you understand it. Then I will give mine. Maybe then we can get somewhere because at the moment I suspect that we don't agree about it or understand it the same way.
Also feel free to post examples of bonsai which display this concept for you.
Last edited by treeman on July 27th, 2017, 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby KIRKY » July 27th, 2017, 5:31 pm

Personally, given the choice I prefer the first pot. There is something not balanced with the new pot.
No Wabi Sabi, Ying Yang, whoodoo voodoo. Just personal choice to my eye the first one was better. :imo:
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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby Keep Calm and Ramify » July 27th, 2017, 5:40 pm

:wave: Mr Treeman,

Maybe a new post needs to start on this "wabi-sabi" discussion topic?
I always thought in it's simplest form, that it meant something like seeing beauty in imperfection (or perfectly imperfect?)
Would be interested to learn more.
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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby Daluke » July 28th, 2017, 6:50 am

I'm intrigued by this tree / pot. It's interesting hearing discussion about wabi sabi / yin yang ect. too.

What's the plan with this tree over the next few seasons??

Would you consider letting the left branch extend over the rim of the pot?
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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby treeman » July 28th, 2017, 10:02 am

Keep Calm and Ramify wrote::wave: Mr Treeman,

Maybe a new post needs to start on this "wabi-sabi" discussion topic?
I always thought in it's simplest form, that it meant something like seeing beauty in imperfection (or perfectly imperfect?)
Would be interested to learn more.


I don't know if many would be interested KC but yes beauty in imperfection.
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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby dansai » July 28th, 2017, 2:28 pm

I have a song, that like all bonsai, is not yet finished. It is called "dischordiest harmony". Is that we are saying wabi sabi is? Something that breaks the mould/rules/expections/something that has come before, yet brings balance to the world?
Last edited by dansai on July 28th, 2017, 2:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby bunce » July 28th, 2017, 2:34 pm

treeman wrote:
bunce wrote:Wabi Sabi is the defining philosophy of bonsai, and without it bonsai does not exist. The best texts I've read on bonsai, start with Wabi Sabi. The best teachings from my Oyakata were about wabi sabi, and its role in bonsai. I am prepared to say that Bonsai is the embodiment of wabi sabi. Mostly we hear about the use of the wabi sabi philosophy when talking in terms of Japanese gardens, and there is much literature on that too. But to say Wabi Sabi does not exist in bonsai anymore is just plain bonkers.

Yin and Yang are two opposing tidal forces, that cancel each other out, leaving balance. This is a Chinese philosophy that began previously to Wabi Sabi and was the founding inspiration for the father of Wabi Sabi.

Matt.

I detect a note of aggression in this reply. But,
Please explain, if you will, this statement....
Wabi Sabi is the defining philosophy of bonsai, and without it bonsai does not exist


And this also....
Bonsai is the embodiment of wabi sabi.


Also please explain the concept of wabi sabi the way you understand it. Then I will give mine. Maybe then we can get somewhere because at the moment I suspect that we don't agree about it or understand it the same way.
Also feel free to post examples of bonsai which display this concept for you.



as suggested ill start another thread about Wabi Sabi and put a link in this thread, just not this week.

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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby bunce » July 28th, 2017, 2:35 pm

dansai wrote:I have a song, that like all bonsai, is not yet finished. It is called "dischordiest harmony". Is that we are saying wabi sabi is? Something that breaks the mould/rules/expections/something that has come before, yet brings balance to the world?



Just think about the beauty in Jin, cracked bark, Old pots, ext.

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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby Keep Calm and Ramify » July 28th, 2017, 4:16 pm

:wave: Bunce,
I will look forward to your topic thread on the meaning on wabi-sabi.
If it is THE defining philosophy of bonsai as you've previously stated, then I feel I need to know more...
(nerdy study glasses are on :geek: )
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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby bunce » August 7th, 2017, 11:13 am

Keep Calm and Ramify wrote::wave: Bunce,
I will look forward to your topic thread on the meaning on wabi-sabi.
If it is THE defining philosophy of bonsai as you've previously stated, then I feel I need to know more...
(nerdy study glasses are on :geek: )



I have put im part 1 (the introduction to WabiSabi) here viewtopic.php?f=3&t=24498 so that we can continue the dicussion of wabi sabi there. But here, lets just dicuss the tree. And for the most part, itll be updates from season to season.


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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby Keep Calm and Ramify » August 7th, 2017, 8:15 pm

:wave: Bunce
Thank you so much for following through & sharing your thoughts on the "W-S" topic. :tu2:
In keeping this post on topic, I would also like to mention that I really admire your tree here (something that I forgot to mention earlier.) Pots will come & go....

P.S :imo: I really like the remnants of the scar at the trunk base as is , it has healed nicely & the subtle hint of damage looks just fine.
I look forward to seeing future updates / progression shots in the future.
All the best.
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Re: Another JBP Progression

Postby viniv » August 8th, 2017, 7:44 pm

Wow looks great! Keep up the good work and progress. :cool:
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