JBP 'coarse' needles

[Nate.bonsai]

I bought a JBP recently that has very thick, coarse, firm, sharp needles which are slightly yellower than my other ones.

My other JBP has longer, finer (thinner), more pliable, greener needles.

And of course my JRP has longer, even finer (thinner), even softer, light green needles.

Comparative pics put up (the light isn't great, so it is hard to make out the colouring difference) - but you can certainly see the 'coarseness' of the needles of the new JBP compared to the others.

I know that in colder climates JBP needles can go a bit yellow-ish - having seen pines going a bit 'off-colour' in winter (e.g. Kimura's pines and even Junipers), but wondered whether this was something else?

I wonder if anyone knows if it is a Winter thing, or a nutrient thing or whether, like humans, some JBPs are just a bit coarse?

Many thanks.

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[shibui]

I can think of several possibilities:
1. Variety: Like other plants, JBP has a reasonably wide distribution so over evolutionary time the trees growing in some areas have become a little different to those in different locations. seed taken from one area might grow different type to some other sources. Added to this pines are usually grown from seed so every time we grow a seedling there is a chance of genetic variation. That's how most garden varieties have originated.
2. Hybrid. It is known that JRP and JBP can cross. The seedlings that result have characteristics of both parents. During the 1980s we had some seed imported that the experts at the time believed to be hybrid as the seedlings had longer, thinner needles than typical black pines. Maybe your 'old' black pine is the one that's not typical?
3. Mislabel. It is not unknown for plants to have the wrong label. Sometimes even the growers don't know the difference. One or both of these may not be JBP?

I have not noticed seasonal changes in pine needles. With proper management needles can reduce in length but not usually in thickness. Nutrition can also affect needle length but I don't think it will change the width?

Yellow needles is a regular occurrence in winter. Usually nutrient related. I find it happens most with trees that have not been repotted recently and those that have not been fed enough over autumn and winter. Usually easily fixed with several applications of soluble fert. There are varieties that have been selected for yellow needles but I doubt that is the case this time.

[Nate.bonsai]

Thanks Shibui. You are like a living bonsai data bank.

I expect it is just variation, as it really is quite pronounced and applies to all needles (ie not just a weird growing season).

Hybrid might be possible. This would have been sown in about 1990 or shortly after. I assume that seeds would still be viable if from the batch that you mentioned, given that we have seed banks where seeds are stored for years.

I have cut it back a fair bit to force some growth in and will keep an eye on how the new buds and needles develop, but I expect will be the same.

I will also quiz the seller again and see if he can shed some light - he is pretty knowledgable and I wouldn't doubt anything that he says.

Thanks again.


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[pjames]

I've got around 30+ Japanese Black pines and 1 Red pine in my garden in different stages of development. Everytime my bonsai friends come visits my garden, they always comment that my black pines' needles have different shades of green colours, needle size and bud formation. They are all black pines from different sources around NSW and VIC. One grower once told me that they cross pollinate with other pinus that's why they've got these differences.

[bunce]

Everything said here by the other two is very good info and quite true, and id like to offer something else. depending on how much you feed them, and how well you carry out your candle cut, and bud selection, you can achieve different needle attributes. while this differences are mild, they are different. Have you been developing your pines? feeding them differently?

Matt.

[Nate.bonsai]

All, thanks for the further comments and PJames for the observations based on your collection (which has caught my fancy from your recent posts).

Matt, all noted re needle colour and length differences due to feeding and candle cutting practiced. The new one is the outlier with the 'coarse' needles. Will getting feed etc as per my others and see if it starts to align with the others.


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[bunce]

All, thanks for the further comments and PJames for the observations based on your collection (which has caught my fancy from your recent posts).

Matt, all noted re needle colour and length differences due to feeding and candle cutting practiced. The new one is the outlier with the 'coarse' needles. Will getting feed etc as per my others and see if it starts to align with the others.


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Good work man,

I've been pretty busy since I last replied, but I was thinking about it just recently, do you do the same thing to all your JBP? do you pluck to 6 pairs of needles and feed nitrogen in spring and cut candles in summer? Maybe this tree was out of sync with the rest of your collection?


Matt

[Nate.bonsai]

Thanks Matt. This one is literally a fresh purchase from the nursery, where they have many, many 'normal' examples (ie similar to my other two and with 'finer' needles), so I assume that it has been treated likewise. Also, I have just cut back hard, so any new buds etc should come up clean and will be treated by me the same as my others. If it is not solely a nutrient issue (which I will correct in the coming season), then I will have to put it down to a genetic variation.


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[dansai]

I have a batch of JBP seedlings that came from shibui. The parent displayed fasciation and he was unsure about wether it was genetic or not. All the seedlings were cut back to induce branching. I can't remember the timing but it was probably a bit late in the growing season. The needles on all these seedling was already a bit flatter than my others but of normal length. As you can see from the picture below, the new growth is quite short, very flat and not in pairs but more like a whorl. I don't know if this was from the late cut or a genetic variation. The longer needles where cut back by about half to aid in wiring the young trunks.

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[bunce]

I have a batch of JBP seedlings that came from shibui. The parent displayed fasciation and he was unsure about wether it was genetic or not. All the seedlings were cut back to induce branching. I can't remember the timing but it was probably a bit late in the growing season. The needles on all these seedling was already a bit flatter than my others but of normal length. As you can see from the picture below, the new growth is quite short, very flat and not in pairs but more like a whorl. I don't know if this was from the late cut or a genetic variation. The longer needles where cut back by about half to aid in wiring the young trunks.

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this is a little more like stunted growth, you can feed nitrogen from now up until summer, candle cut, and itll fold them into the rest of your collection with short, mature, heathly adult needles.

[dansai]

Thanks bunce. I thought as much. I cut back below the last node as the growth was too long and as I said, probably quite late in the season. All seedlings show this cluster of buds at the tips. I assumed it was a form of juvenile foliage like you get with some junipers.

I was hoping for needle buds to form along the length of the remaining stem so I could select branches and develop shohin tress, but most seems to be right at the ends. Any tips on how to get more even branching on a young pine?

[shibui]

You are right about those new shoots being a type of juvenile growth. It can happen when pines are pruned, especially later in the season.
Sometimes you can activate lower buds by pruning if the tree is very healthy but if you need shoots on a pine you really need to cut right back to that point. The result you have is typical - buds form just below the cut.
You will need to move to a maintenance type program (cut candles early summer, reduce needles in autumn and thin out buds resulting from the summer decandling) to get good density and ramification. I think for shohin you probably need to start that quite early. It may slow down trunk development but you can either have a quick shohin or a good shohin. Sacrifice branches will help thicken lower trunk while restraining the parts you want to keep.