THE PINE PROJECT

Forum for discussion of Pines, Junipers, Cedar etc as bonsai.

Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby shibui » October 9th, 2018, 8:01 pm

I have never had viable seed from cones on potted trees but I know that others have had.
Leave them or not depends how that will affect the development of the tree - lack of pruning, rather than slowed growth due to reproducing. Are they on shoots that can be allowed to grow un pruned for 2 years or will that affect the development of those or other shoots on the tree? Is any potential detriment to the tree outweighed by the possibility of some seed, given you already have more seedlings than you know what to do with?
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby melbrackstone » October 9th, 2018, 8:06 pm

Is any potential detriment to the tree outweighed by the possibility of some seed, given you already have more seedlings than you know what to do with?


very good point... :whistle: :whistle: :whistle:
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby Ryceman3 » October 9th, 2018, 8:47 pm

shibui wrote:I have never had viable seed from cones on potted trees but I know that others have had.


That’s probably the kind of info I was after, thanks for that! :beer:

shibui wrote:Are they on shoots that can be allowed to grow un pruned for 2 years or will that affect the development of those or other shoots on the tree? Is any potential detriment to the tree outweighed by the possibility of some seed, given you already have more seedlings than you know what to do with?


They are on a sacrifice branch as stated so no real impact on the tree (significant bonsai part anyway) given it will be removed. I was thinking about removing maybe this coming Autumn depending obviously on how things went over summer. I have plenty of seedlings, that is true... but in 2 years time I will have no seedlings and given the “abundance” of seed around, I reckoned it was an option worth a second thought. Just thinking ahead...!
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby Ryceman3 » October 11th, 2018, 1:31 pm

Today I extracted a few Austrian pines and gave the roots a bit of a trim before potting them up in some regular bonsai mix. Plenty of roots on all the ones I pulled up ... I cut back fairly hard I think - hopefully not too hard. I plan to let these ones just grow from now until Autumn, when I'll review and depending on how big and established they seem I hope to get some wire onto those trunks and get some movement in early.
IMG_3421.jpg

IMG_3422.jpg

IMG_3427.jpg

A big thanks to Kirky for your pot donations - they're not going to waste ... I'm very appreciative! :tu: 8-)
I still have a few to do.
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby shibui » October 11th, 2018, 6:23 pm

That's about how I do the initial root prune on my pines Ryceman. They should have no trouble and should also reward you with a good radial root system.
It is even possible to cut above the lateral roots and most will still sprout new roots as a seedling cutting. This was touted as a strategy for superior nebari at one stage but I did not get any better results than leaving the first few laterals like your picture.
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby MJL » October 11th, 2018, 9:45 pm

Thanks for the update R3. Your clear photos are really helpful. It appears very similar to how I approach my Chinese and Japanese Elm seedlings - that self seed in my garden. I reckon I average about 60 Chinese and 20 Japanese self-seeded plants each year. When I carefully extract them from the garden bed - I cut the tap root to about what you’ve done with your pines ... transfer to trays with seedling soil and they are away. About 12 months later - they are checked, trimmed and into a courser mix. Seems to work for me.


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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby Ryceman3 » October 12th, 2018, 8:28 am

shibui wrote:That's about how I do the initial root prune on my pines Ryceman. They should have no trouble and should also reward you with a good radial root system.
It is even possible to cut above the lateral roots and most will still sprout new roots as a seedling cutting. This was touted as a strategy for superior nebari at one stage but I did not get any better results than leaving the first few laterals like your picture.


Thanks for the confirmation shibui, I'm hopeful this will produce the radial roots as you mention. As I have a lot of seedlings I do plan to experiment a bit and try out the seedling cutting technique. I haven't found much info on how it works with anything other than JBP ... I feel like I read it wasn't a very succesful technique for Scots pine but I can't re-discover where I read that so maybe I'm making it up! I also have read a few threads you put out in relation to taking cuttings from the top of seedlings later in the season ... this is something I'm keen to give a go as well.
:beer:

MJL - thanks for your reply. I too have gone hard on elms in the past and they don't miss a beat. Pines I was a little less confident about!
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby melbrackstone » October 12th, 2018, 7:27 pm

They're looking great Ryceman.
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby Ryceman3 » October 16th, 2018, 1:23 pm

Thanks Mel. :yes:

Smashed out a lot of stuff for work this morning so that I could get stuck into the roots/repotting on these pines. Today it was the turn of a few Scots Pine. Basically they got the same treatment as the Austrians before them. The wind was wreaking havoc so I've covered these with the clear domes and put them in afternoon shade, if the wind dies down I'll remove the covers but with not much holding them in the ground I was worried they'd just blow away! Still plenty to do but making progress ... JBPs next
:beer:
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And for something different ... here's a shot of one of the Scot's seedlings - looks like it's going albino?!? :shock: Not that there's anything wrong with that - I love them all equally.... :whistle:
IMG_3446.jpg
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby melbrackstone » October 16th, 2018, 2:28 pm

Seeds often produce aberrations...it's always worth looking out for them, since they might produce worthwhile adaptations to the parent plants...
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby Ryceman3 » October 17th, 2018, 1:35 pm

JBP day today... I have done a few the same as the Scots and Austrian Pines above so won't bother with photos of that (essentially identical to previous posts).
I did try the stem cutting technique on a few JBP, and a couple of JRP and Austrian Pine as well. Below are some photos of a JBP going through the technique and a bit of a description of the process. Nothing to do now but :fc: for those ones and wait a few weeks to see what occurs.

STEP 1 : Prepare pots as previously done but this time I used a screwdriver handle to make an indent in the centre of the soil about 25mm or so deep, then I filled that hole with a mix of sifted fine zeolite and coir peat. This finer mix is meant to keep the moisture close to the stem as it produces roots, I think prop sand is used often for this - but this is what I had so this is what I used! Water thoroughly now so you don't have to later (this will lessen the chance of the hormone mix below washing away)
IMG_3450.jpg

STEP 2 : Grab a seedling and get your blade, cutting the roots/stem around 20mm or so down from the foliage ... the first time you do it, it's scary - but it's uncanny how quickly you get into it! :twisted: If doing multiple cuttings at once (which presumably most people would) you can now put the cutting in a bowl/tray of clean water to make sure the end doesn't dry out while you cut some more.
IMG_3459.jpg

STEP 3 : Dip the end of the cutting into some root hormone. Almost everyone I referenced for this technique just dipped into powdered hormone, but I went with a paste that I make by mixing rooting gel and powder together. I find when I layer this paste seems to stick nicely and not wash off so easily, so I thought it was worth a shot here also. This paste technique is not my idea, I stole it from another Ausbonsaier (RayM) who should take the credit!
IMG_3460.jpg

STEP 4 : I used some 4mm wire to poke a hole in the fine mix in the pots (about 15-20mm deep), then insert your cutting and gently press around it to make sure it is sitting in the mix nicely.
IMG_3462.jpg

STEP 5 : Potted up cuttings are placed on a tray and under a dome for a bit (not sure how long yet??) where they will hopefully grow some nice new roots...
IMG_3464.jpg

Hopefully my next post in relation to these is to show how succesful I was!??!
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby terryb » October 17th, 2018, 7:24 pm

Thanks for the tutorial Ryceman3 and great to see you are having some success. Not so great from my end. Of the 33 seed I started with, which were soaked for two days and then stratified for 8 weeks, I had five germinate so far, all at different times. Subsequently lost a couple to rot, (never have had that problem before) so only have two to show for my efforts. Oh well, let’s hope I can keep those alive.
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby MJL » October 17th, 2018, 7:53 pm

Yep, excellent and easy to understand advice R3. Thanks. :clap:

And terryb - limited success but at least you gave it a crack! :yes:
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby Ryceman3 » October 18th, 2018, 8:15 am

terryb wrote:Thanks for the tutorial Ryceman3 and great to see you are having some success. Not so great from my end. Of the 33 seed I started with, which were soaked for two days and then stratified for 8 weeks, I had five germinate so far, all at different times. Subsequently lost a couple to rot, (never have had that problem before) so only have two to show for my efforts. Oh well, let’s hope I can keep those alive.


Hi terryb, sorry to hear that you haven’t got more than a couple... but keep the faith for a bit longer, I’ve had 4 pop in the last week that were planted in July... hopefully you’ll be surprised by what appears.
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Re: THE PINE PROJECT

Postby terryb » October 18th, 2018, 12:33 pm

MJL wrote:And terryb - limited success but at least you gave it a crack! :yes:


Hey MJL, I have no problem with trying stuff out and having it go pear-shaped - it's all a learning experience for next time. Problem is that I was extremely lucky to get these JBP seed in the first place and there may not be scope for another go. Given the non-uniform germination I've seen so far I'm hoping the Ryceman3 is right and a few more pop up.
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