Best JBP technique for QLD? Plus an interesting question

Forum for discussion of Pines, Junipers, Cedar etc as bonsai.

Best JBP technique for QLD? Plus an interesting question

Postby JakeG95 » September 28th, 2018, 12:38 pm

So far I’m drawn to Ryan Neil’s technique
Watched the lectures
Makes sense
For those that are unaware a brief summary:

1. In spring feed and let all candles grow.
- use needle plucking to distribute energy

2. In summer cut all candles/shoots back to the stub
- cut all of them

3. There will be a new flush of grown
- leave them all to grow
- cut them back to the 2 shoots you wanna keep on each branch

SECOND QUESTION:
1. In summer if I pick too shoots I want to keep from each branch from the first flush of growth and trim them back to 3cm for example (instead of cutting right back to the base) will there be new buds from this shoot?

So instead of cutting all candles back to nothing, I keep 2 shoots, cut back to an appropriate length and then once again choose shoots in autumn after second flush?
My thoughts are would this create two lots of ramification in one season?
- could this be a way to more quickly develop ramification in younger trees?
JakeG95
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
 
Posts: 8
Joined: September 7th, 2018, 10:31 pm
Location: Aus
Bonsai Age: 1

Re: Best JBP technique for QLD? Plus an interesting question

Postby wrcmad » September 28th, 2018, 5:20 pm

I'll offer you a perspective from my experience and learned knowledge (others may have different observations or techniques).
JakeG95 wrote:1. In summer if I pick too shoots I want to keep from each branch from the first flush of growth and trim them back to 3cm for example (instead of cutting right back to the base) will there be new buds from this shoot?

Yes, but only if you wait for the transition from foliar to vascular growth. This window is before the shoot fully hardens, but after it has started to harden, and is signified by the new shoot stem changing from green to straw colour - as a guide, generally the 2nd and 3rd week of Feb.
If you cut the shoot to length in this window, it will set new buds at the terminal needle clusters for next spring.
If you cut before this window, it will set a second flush at the base of this shoot (similar to decandling).
If you cut after this window, it will push new buds back to the candle origin for next spring's growth, as it will be too late in the season to push more foliar growth.
There are slight variations depending on microclimates.
JakeG95 wrote:So instead of cutting all candles back to nothing, I keep 2 shoots, cut back to an appropriate length and then once again choose shoots in autumn after second flush?
My thoughts are would this create two lots of ramification in one season?
- could this be a way to more quickly develop ramification in younger trees?

You will generally not get a 2nd flush at the cut site of the shoot in this February window, as it will be too late in season for a 2nd flush to fully develop. As mentioned above, instead it will reliably result in the setting of new buds at the cut site for next spring. However, in QLD you may be lucky?

Any other experiences would be welcomed. :)
Last edited by wrcmad on September 28th, 2018, 5:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
wrcmad
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
 
Posts: 372
Images: 0
Joined: April 25th, 2014, 10:57 pm
Location: Northern NSW
Favorite Species: Elm, Fig, Pine
Bonsai Age: 31

Re: Best JBP technique for QLD? Plus an interesting question

Postby JakeG95 » September 28th, 2018, 6:25 pm

Thanks for a great reply! I’m certain I’m not the first to think of this and I’m sure it’s veen tried, so given that I probably just need to stick to what the pros do
JakeG95
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
 
Posts: 8
Joined: September 7th, 2018, 10:31 pm
Location: Aus
Bonsai Age: 1

Re: Best JBP technique for QLD? Plus an interesting question

Postby Stimson » November 11th, 2018, 6:06 am

Good info. Will try these techniques on one of my starters ive grown from seed.
Stimson
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
 
Posts: 15
Joined: March 7th, 2009, 8:06 pm
Location: Brisbane
Favorite Species: ficus
Bonsai Age: 15
Bonsai Club: BSOQ

Re: Best JBP technique for QLD? Plus an interesting question

Postby shibui » November 11th, 2018, 8:11 pm

I just re read the original question.
In summer if I pick too shoots I want to keep from each branch from the first flush of growth and trim them back to 3cm for example (instead of cutting right back to the base) will there be new buds from this shoot?

Hope i have interpreted the Q as intended.
Pines will only bud where there are needles. It does not matter whether the shoots are green or hardened. They will also bud from the base of each growth flush.
First flush candles usually have a bare 'neck' with no needles on the lower part. Length of the bare neck can vary from almost nothing on older, well ramified trees to 10 cm on vigorous growing young ones. The rest of the shoot will have pairs of needles. If you cut the shoot so as to leave a few pairs of needles buds will form at the base of those needles but if you cut to leave just the bare part buds will only form at the base, exactly the same as if you cut the shoot right at the base. There is some talk that if any length of stem is left the green stem may be able to photosynthesise and that branch may be stronger than others that are cut shorter and that the buds that follow may also be stronger than desired. Recommendation is to cut just 1 mm above the base to avoid overly strong 2nd flush.

Given the above, if your spring shoots are short enough to use in the ramification you should be able to follow your idea but if the shoots have bare necks I think you will be disappointed with the ramification except maybe where the tree is quite large
shibui
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
 
Posts: 4897
Images: 24
Joined: August 22nd, 2009, 8:41 pm
Location: Yackandandah
Favorite Species: trident maple
Bonsai Age: 33
Bonsai Club: Albury/Wodonga; BSV; Canberra; VNBC

Re: Best JBP technique for QLD? Plus an interesting question

Postby bki » November 12th, 2018, 12:39 am

Sorry but I think I sense a mixed up here. cutting candles is developmental pruning and decandling is for bifurcation/ramification of nearly developed pines. two different stages right. OMG hope I said it right.
more trees.....
bki
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
 
Posts: 109
Joined: August 14th, 2011, 12:53 pm
Location: victoria
Favorite Species: pine
Bonsai Age: 5

Re: Best JBP technique for QLD? Plus an interesting question

Postby shibui » November 12th, 2018, 7:32 am

Sorry but I think I sense a mixed up here. cutting candles is developmental pruning and decandling is for bifurcation/ramification of nearly developed pines. two different stages right.

There is at least 2 different stages in development of pine bonsai and we usually use different techniques in different stages.
I thought decandling and candle cutting are the same thing. but I sense you are using decandling for total removal while candle cutting may mean shortening the developing candles?

For developing (trees that you want to grow bigger or fatter) trees I just let them grow with very little pruning for 2-3 years then prune back to the lowest needles where new buds will grow and start the cycle again until the trunk/branches are the desired size. Need to do some management to avoid reverse taper at whorls and to maintain lower/inner shoots and needles to grow the final branching.
When you want ramification and shorter growth switch to decandling - total removal of candles in early summer - to get lots of shorter new buds. Needs to be used in conjunction with shoot selection and needle removal to help balance vigour so all parts of the tree have similar vigour.

Also note that different pine species need quite different management. I believe white and mugho pine candles are not usually totally removed but are often shortened while still soft and green? (candle cutting?)

All this is much easier to show than to write. Aspiring pine growers should definitely talk to someone with good experience at a club to get good hands on info.
shibui
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
 
Posts: 4897
Images: 24
Joined: August 22nd, 2009, 8:41 pm
Location: Yackandandah
Favorite Species: trident maple
Bonsai Age: 33
Bonsai Club: Albury/Wodonga; BSV; Canberra; VNBC

Re: Best JBP technique for QLD? Plus an interesting question

Postby bki » November 12th, 2018, 12:34 pm

Thanks Shibui.
more trees.....
bki
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
 
Posts: 109
Joined: August 14th, 2011, 12:53 pm
Location: victoria
Favorite Species: pine
Bonsai Age: 5

Re: Best JBP technique for QLD? Plus an interesting question

Postby Matt S » November 12th, 2018, 3:43 pm

Shibui (as usual) is spot on in regards to the neck of the candle, so I'll just add a photo to help out:

pine candle.jpg


That highlighted section is the neck, and regardless of where or when you prune that section will never produce future buds. On strong candles that section can get really long, but that's not a problem if you're building a branch in it's early stages and you don't require branching there. As the tree gets more refined, the length between branches needs to get shorter so long necks become more of a problem.

If you have a candle with a long neck where you don't want it, you'll need to cut it off in summer at the base and the resulting shoots will produce candles with shorter necks. The timing depends on the length of your growing season. In Adelaide it's around Christmas but I'm not going to try to guess the time for your area.

If the neck length is OK you can pinch some of the candle and if you time it right you'll get new buds at the end of the candle. As others have stated, you may get another flush of growth because of your climate but you'll need to try it to find out, or find someone else who has tried it.

..and I think Ive just repeated what everyone else has said. Talking about pines will do that.

Matt.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
User avatar
Matt S
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
 
Posts: 321
Joined: February 21st, 2015, 8:57 am
Location: Adelaide
Favorite Species: Olive
Bonsai Age: 26
Bonsai Club: S.A. Bonsai Society


Return to Pines and Junipers

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No Members and 4 guests