JBP salvageable and looking for seeds!

[Mickeyjaytee]

Hi guys,

Long story short I managed to get some JBP seeds from Queensland years ago. I had one survive but, had no idea what I was doing so it sat in a large pot and grew. It does have a really nice trunk but, I have a feeling it’s grown way too far now for bonsai. I’m a complete beginner and had no idea about whorls and training. I will attach some photos of it. It’s branches have become quite long.

I will say that it did flower this year so, if it produced conces would the seeds be able to germinate or does it need another JBP to cross pollinate with?

I was also curious if anyone knows where I can get anymore JBP seeds from? I know it’s illegal to import which, I never did, I always bought from Australia but, am having zero luck finding anything.

Any help or advice would be fantastic!

[Rintar]

G'day mate. I don't do pines but if you can get the see you can give it a go even if it needs cross pollination there maybe one near by you don't know about. Worst comes you do all the right things and seeds don't germinate. As to it being to big to bonsai now. No its not. Will it be easy to turn it into a great quality bonsai probably not. Is it ever for a beginner, no. Can you keep it growing and use it as a cross pollinator for others in the future sure. Could you practice on it and learn techniques to become a better bonsai artist defiantly. You can also learn how it reacts to different treatment. You have kept it alive for this long that in itself would have taught you some but now you can learn more.

[KIRKY]

Why not try air layering you have a lot of branches, and you’ll be ahead of the game looking and waiting for seed. You have missed planting for this season anyway. Just a suggestion. here’s one link I just found I am sure there are many more and probably youtube to help you.
https://www.o-yaku.com/post/japanese-bl ... r-layering

Cheers
Kirky

[shibui]

It is a long process to recover a pine with over long branches but with patience and technique it can be done.
First option is try to get back buds like the one shown in the picture. Hard pruning (though not below the needles) is one of the options here. Wait until they are reasonably strong then cut back the long branches and start developing with the new, shorter growth.
Second option is to graft new shoots into desirable locations and use those to grow the new branching. You have plenty of long shoots so inarching (approach graft) would be viable. Approach graft is slow but much easier and more reliable than grafting shoots though the thick bark on pines does make it a bit harder.
Probably allow recovery of a pine like this as a 10-15 year project.

The biggest problem with whorls of branches is local thickening. Fortunately it does not look too bad in this one. Always reduce whorls to as few branches as possible. Often removing the main trunk and retaining 2 smaller branches is a good tactic to get better taper.

Some growers have reported getting viable seeds from potted black pines but mine have only given empty seeds. Pines are self fertile but the female cones are at the tips of new shoots while male pollen cones are below. That's probably an evolutionary strategy to reduce inbreeding and means most of the pollen falls down and misses the females on that tree. Pollinating by hand - bend a branch with ripe male cones up and shake it close to the female cones to release pollen over them will help.

[tgward]

perhaps remove all but one bendable branch and make literati style -- or not

[tgooboon]

I can see that you still have some weaker branches closer to the trunk.

Could you transition the strength back to use those branches over an extended period?

I have marked up a picture showing where I see you could cut, noting you need to be careful not to remove more than 30-50% each reduction. The key in my view is keeping some full branches right to growing tip for strength while you reduce the long branches. This might take a few years to reduce and then have to grow those out.

Good luck,

[treeman]

Almost all black pines out of growing fields in Japan are grafted now. They are easy to graft and you should have no hesitation to try. There are probably many instructional videos out there now. You graft in spring just as new growth begins or late summer after growth has hardened or both. Use healthy shoots to graft in many places at once. Approach grafting won't get you anywhere. You can even use shoots from a short needle variety and change the whole thing to that. If you can find Aglis ''buddy tape'', you just wrap up the whole shoot without bag or moss and you can easily put 20 shoots on at one time. However, on your tree 3 or 4 low grafts would do the job. I had to order the tape from Japan. It is not cheap but worth every penny. If the graft fails, just do it again in 6 months.

[tgooboon]

You can also get good grafting tape from fernland via their website. Search for "Grafting Tape Embossed" and you can get regular width up to 25mm wide.

I should really try give grafting JBP a go.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Hey guys,

First off thank you so much for the replies! I so greatly appreciate all the help. Feeling really positive about being able to actually hopefully bring my tree back into a good pre-bonsai state. I will keep you all updated on how I go. I’ll wait for summer for the pruning.

I’ve never done decandling before and she’s sent out shoots and they are starting to open. I heard if I reduce the size of the bigger ones it may help redirect strength to the weaker parts of the tree. Should I attempt this now or just wait til the summer prune?

I’ve attached some pictures of the candling. Also, the ones with purple tips, are they the beginnings of cones? There’s also a close up of the very small back bud close to the trunk near the bottoms of the tree.

Thanks again!

[Mickeyjaytee]

I can see that you still have some weaker branches closer to the trunk.

Could you transition the strength back to use those branches over an extended period?

I have marked up a picture showing where I see you could cut, noting you need to be careful not to remove more than 30-50% each reduction. The key in my view is keeping some full branches right to growing tip for strength while you reduce the long branches. This might take a few years to reduce and then have to grow those out.

Good luck,

Thank you so much for taking the time to put this together for me. I really appreciate that. I feel this is probably the best route to go so I’ll let you know when summer comes and I start phase 1! Is there a preference on which part of summer? As in do it Dec, Jan or Feb?

Thanks again mate!

EDIT: Is it worth to get some putty to stop sap flow where I make the cuts? Thank you

[tgooboon]

If doing a neat cut of exactly where you want to heal then I personally would use cut putty. The brown stuff looks good, I have noticed the pine wounds with brown putty seem to grow over very well. I am not sure if it stops bleeding as I still see sap trying to push past the putty - hopefully someone can answer?

If you leave a big stub (an extra 50-75mm past where you want to keep), then I don't know whether there is benefit for using cut paste as it will compartmentalize the wounds further away, then do a neat cut later.

My understanding is you can cut any time of year:
- If you cut in summer you will get some bleeding, but should be less than spring - summer should see a fairly quick response of lots of weaker buds.
- If you cut in winter you will get minimal bleeding, and should see a slow response of stronger buds.

[shibui]

Cut paste does not stop bleeding. It does protect the wound so the cambium can grow over the wound site much quicker. Only needed on the final cut when we want the wound to heal quick. I rarely see bleeding in pines after pruning here.

The purple bits at the tip of candles are female cones developing. They take 18 moths to ripen so those won't be ready until autumn next year but I guess you'll have to take them off well before then. My experience is few, if any, viable seeds in cones on potted trees due to poor pollination.

Removing strong growth will always redirect strength to weaker parts but I'd be leaving them for now in order to give the tree more strength for pruning/back budding or grafting.

We can prune pines any time of year but results vary with time of year.
Prune in spring results in strong regrowth with larger shoots.
Prune early summer results in smaller shoots so better future ramification.
Prune later summer through to winter may not see immediate results. Buds often don't emerge until the following spring when they will often be long and strong again.

[thoglette]

We can prune pines any time of year but results vary with time of year.
Prune in spring results in strong regrowth with larger shoots.
Prune early summer results in smaller shoots so better future ramification.
Prune later summer through to winter may not see immediate results. Buds often don't emerge until the following spring when they will often be long and strong again.

One could do a lot worse than work one's way through everything Jonas Dupuich has had to say about black pines on his blog on Bonsai Tonight

I'd suggest you search there on "black pine sacrifice" (for starters - that's only ten pages of posts).

If I had to point you to just one post, maybe it would be this one Bonsai Development Series #10: transitioning to a new sacrifice branch as the tree in development might look a bit familiar, but also quite different.