Next steps… mungo pine shohin

[Mickeyjaytee]

Hi all,

I have this mugo pine in development for shohin and it’s started to grow out its candles. I’m wondering if I’m supposed to cut the leader candle and get multiple candles develop next time it goes into growth mode or, do I leave it to thicken and hope for a few candles off the leader?

I’m not too sure about mugo pines, this is my first. I know JBP will send out a second flush later in the season but, this isn’t a JBP!

I’m also guessing I’ll have to try bend the trunk a little closer to itself again?

Any help would be awesome

[Ryceman3]

Mugo are a single flush pine, unlike JBP. I know this is not particularly original (or possibly what you want to hear) but your tree is young and needs to grow a bit before any decisions about cutting back need to be made. I think you can give it one more year at least to gain strength, then start to consider options. It’s had a good start to this point, just let it grow for a bit now!

[shibui]

There's always several ways to achieve similar results with bonsai.
Pines can be left to grow for a couple of seasons to thicken then be cut back hard to get the extra shoots needed to develop low branches and a new leader with better taper. It seems to be safer to only allow a couple of years growing between chops so there's still needles to ensure budding after the chop but in my limited experience with mugho they do seem to bud on bare wood better than JBP.
The alternative is to trim more regularly which will also get side shoots but will also slow thickening a bit, especially in the early stages. On the plus side you'll have less scars to heal with this approach which can be an advantage on shohin sized bonsai.
I would not be making those bends any closer together. Consider what will happen as the trunk thickens (remember that it will normally thicken on all sides). Tight bends end up as a lump on the trunk as the trunk thickens all round so need to allow space for trunk to thicken and still have spaces.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks for both replies guys, I appreciate that. Hmmm I’m a little torn now. I’m not too fussed if the thickening slows down, I was of the approach I’m that if I had more branches early I’d have more choice later when it comes to branch selection. With that said, when the new growth comes I choose 2 to avoid a whorl correct?

The plant was pre bonsai from a good friend and the idea is to let the trunk meld together. I’m just unsure on these next steps.

What would either of you do?

Thanks again

[TimIAm]

Mickey, it's a bit hard to see from the pictures provided how tight the bend is, but shibui is correct about what could happen if you have bends that are too tight and they fuse, you can end up with a lump. It won't happen immediately, but if you put all that effort to grow the tree over 5 or 10 years, that lump could end up being a disappointment.

Last year I bought a large number of pine seedlings to learn from and alongside R3's own pine thread here, recently I've been going through all of the entries of the 6 year pine project on bonsainut forums. It's extremely good learning material and great if you want to compare where you are now and where you want to be. All of the entries can be viewed here: https://www.bonsainut.com/forums/the-20 ... ontest.73/

With the 'what should I do' question, it's personal choice, but what you should be considering is what shibui covered in his reply. It's taken me the past few years to really understand the implications of each choice, but the options are "thicken then be cut back hard to get the extra shoots needed" or "trim more regularly which will also get side shoots but will also slow thickening a bit". These are 2 approaches, but throughout the life of the tree you can switch between the two (so, thicken up and then work on ramification). The choice is also a continuum: on one end, if you continually trim you end up with the 'stick in a pot' where you're constantly chopping back new growth, on the other end is having a super thick trunk with super long internodes and limited branching. It is possible for you control either choice: with growth (as mentioned, allow a couple of years and then chop) or manage refinement (allow for some growth on branches before cutting back, don't just refine to where your little tree looks like your dream tree but don't let it grow).

Different trees (species) react differently, grow faster or slower, and backbud more or less profusely. It's all part of the learning to work out the best approach for each tree. It's really useful to understand these options and the great thing about the pine threads linked above is you can see how others have approach these options and how they dealt with the pros and cons to each approach.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Hi all,

Thanks so much for the replies! I appreciate it. Interestingly enough I was told to let it fuse together, that’s what I want. Let it consume the wire and fuse together. Sounds like that’s a no go for the risk of a lump.

So I guess my next question is, should I move the trunk away from itself? It’s very close as is. I’ve attached some pics, hopefully they work out. What I mean is to reduce the extreme bends.

With the main candle, do I let it harden off, then add some movement or leave? Also, do I need to needle pluck it to allow the lower weaker candles it has to help balance them? I’m also wondering if I was to needle pluck, that would mean no back budding?

Sorry for the million questions, I want to get it right!

Thanks for the link Tim, that’s super helpful, I appreciate it.

Cheers all!

[TimIAm]

At the end of the day it's a risk, it could pay off and you could end up with something unique. The risk is there because you can't control exactly how the tree ends up developing over the wire. The other risk is that there is a gap between the "bulge" and the soil line and the start of the nebari. I'm sure others have done it with great success, but there is also that risk of reverse taper.

It's your tree and there is nothing wrong with any approach, everything we do has risks and challenges. Hopefully what's in this thread gives you something to consider either way.

I certainly appreciate the questions, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is sitting back and learning from all the great info that gets shared when other people ask good questions.

[shibui]

If your aim is to create a fused lump on the trunk then what you've done is ideal but consider where the roots will be and therefore where your nebari will be attached to the trunk. Hard to see from here whether there's any trunk below the bends. I have several junipers and a couple of maples where the fused lump is a centimetre or 2 above the roots. Doesn't look good to me hence the warning.
Whether to move the bends depends how thick you intend the trunk to get.

As for the new candle. It does have a bare 'neck' where you won't have any shoots or branches in future. If it is short enough that the gap won't be a problem there's no problem leaving it on. If it is intended as a sacrifice trunk there's no problem leaving it on for a few years.
I don't think there's any need to needle pluck at this stage but keep a watch on the low shoots if you think they are important. If they start to weaken you should weaken the sacrifice to allow them to catch up.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks for the replies guys. I can’t see the roots or nebari so it’s quite a risk. I may just move the trunk a bit so it’s not too close. I really don’t know what I’m doing so, I’d rather be safe than sorry.

I definitely want the trunk to be thicker so moving it away from itself would be the way to go?

I did figure the candle would make a good sacrifice branch for a few years. Contrary, I’ve been watching heaps of YouTube videos where they cut and get multiple new candles from the site. I thought that would be a good idea, as to I’d have more branches to work with. I’ve had pines get away from me before and I feel they get “too far gone” to cut back.

Thanks again all!

[shibui]

I did figure the candle would make a good sacrifice branch for a few years. Contrary, I’ve been watching heaps of YouTube videos where they cut and get multiple new candles from the site. I thought that would be a good idea, as to I’d have more branches to work with. I’ve had pines get away from me before and I feel they get “too far gone” to cut back.

Cutting candles does give lots of new shoots from the base BUT the vids rarely tell you it also slows growth so you'll get very little thickening that year.
If you think you need more shoots from where the base of the candle is and you are prepared for a year of almost no thickening then cut the shoot.
Remember that this is a mugho - single flush type so it won't throw lots of new shoots soon after pruning. Single flush means you will have to wait for the following spring for new buds.
Provided you cut back before the older needles drop you can safely delay pruning for 2 or 3 years and still get good budding after the chop.

Candle cutting should be a technique for trees that have good thickness and reasonable branch placement. It is a technique for finishing a pine not for starting one unless you want to spend forever on the growing and developing.

[Ryceman3]

Decandling/candle cutting is a technique used on double flush pines in refinement. Your tree is a single flush pine in development… but it is your tree. Bonsai (amongst other things) is a journey of discovery, enjoy the ride!

[Mickeyjaytee]

Cheers for the info lads. I did not know cutting it would slow it right down, I’ll leave as is. I’m nervous about branches and development so, I might keep this thread going in the future. Quick question, is now an ok time to move the trunk away from itself? It is growing atm so I’m unsure when is the best time for it. Thanks Shibui, your info is so valuable, I appreciate it.

Thanks again for the reply R3, I appreciate it mate. While it is my tree, I’m more than happy for input, I don’t have much experience so, go all out! I know very little about one flush pines and most info I can find is all about JBP or other 2 flush pines.

Thanks again all. You rock

[dansai]

Some great info in his thread. Just a quick note on the idea of leaving wire on and letting the tree grow over it. I have heard it numerous times before and I would say it is a very risky technique that will more than likely produce a very bad result. Not only do you have the possibility of reverse taper and an unsightly lump as mentioned above, if you ever decide to create a shari or deadwood in the area you risk exposing the wire.

[TimS]

Some great info in his thread. Just a quick note on the idea of leaving wire on and letting the tree grow over it. I have heard it numerous times before and I would say it is a very risky technique that will more than likely produce a very bad result. Not only do you have the possibility of reverse taper and an unsightly lump as mentioned above, if you ever decide to create a shari or deadwood in the area you risk exposing the wire.

Agreed, I can't recall ever seeing an example of this technique that IMO looked any good. The angle of the wire leads to very predictable and obvious wounds/ lumps that look super contrived

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thanks for the replies guys, I appreciate it. I’ll make sure the wire comes off. This is something way out of my league.

Will it be ok to adjust the trunk now while it’s sending out that candle? By that I mean bend it out so the trunk isn’t so close to itself.

Here’s a question and something I struggle with. How do you grow a sacrifice branch and keep the lower branches close and not have them run away? I did try a JBP years ago and it just got away from me with long branches and growth.

Lastly, I never want opposing branches correct? I know that if 4 shoots come out of the one spot, 2 must be removed or is it 3 due to the area thickening wider than the base of the trunk?

Thanks again, looking forward to this little guy growing up! It probably needs a bigger pot right? It’s in quite a small one atm

(EDIT: just realised auto correct changed mugo to mungo in the title and I can’t edit that out)

Henceforth I shall name this little tree Mungo