JRP questions

[shibui]

Time to a good bonsai depends on a whole host of factors so there's no real answer but I typically spend at least 5 years and more usually 10-15 years developing trees to the point I'm happy to put them in bonsai pots.

Correct on reducing the remaining branches. That will reduce the thickening at the junction. I might b tempted to retain 3 in the early stages and let one grow as another sacrifice branch to keep the trunk thickening faster but that would depend what it really looks like as I can't even see the junction of the 4 branches in the photos so I don't really know what is there. In general I try to retain the branches with low side shoots because they give more flexibility for later development. Long, bare sections limit your options so they are often the first to go if there's a choice.
How long to let grow and when to prune back to maintain good ramification can be tricky too. In general pines will produce buds wherever there are healthy needles. Needles usually live for 3 years before dying so we can usually leave the trees to grow for 2-3 years before really needing to prune. Letting the trees grow free for a couple of years strengthens the tree and adds much more trunk/branch thickness than regular pruning does. That development pruning can be quite a hard cut back, not just removing the spring growth but cutting way back to the oldest, lowest healthy needles to get new shoots way back there. You will see that this 'development' pruning is quite different to the 'maintenance' decandling technique that gets way more publicity.

You may find some good ideas and inspiration on this thread viewtopic.php?f=131&t=25843&hilit=ryceman It is mostly black pines but, as we've already mentioned, reds have similar growth so the principles will be similar.

[CameronB]

You have given me some great advice and things to think about I really appreciate it. I have a week off work next week so will be looking, thinking and re reading and will make some decisions and keep you posted on how things progress. One last question for you if you don’t mind should I do an any wiring work after the cuts I make or should I let the tree just grow? I was thinking I would need to wire ‘up’ the new leader to give the tree some form but not 100% sure on this. I again thank you for your time and advice in helping me

[shibui]

I would certainly do pruning and any wiring in one session if I had time to do it all. Doesn't matter if you wire before or after pruning either.
Look at the new leader with a view to letting the natural change of angle become your trunk bends. Changing the planting angle of the tree might make the bends look more natural.
If you prefer a straighter trunk then wire the new leader upward to continue the straight trunk.

[tgooboon]

You are on the right track by studying and considering all the options before cutting anything off.

I would hold off cutting the main trunk and keep it growing strong - it will slow the tree's growth rate when you remove the main trunk, until it redirects its strength to a new branchline.

I would focus on the roots - trim the Circling roots in the picture - i would even dig a bit deeper towards the edge of the pot (say 1.5cm's) and really clean out the roots in this zone as the top is is what will form you nebari, but at the same time, make sure i did not disturb roots going below this. The harder you are on the roots the more inclined I would be to leave the main truck cutback for a few months. if you don't touch the roots,then should not be a problem to cut back the trunk at any time.

I would trim some of the side branches/trunk - weight up do you want to keep 3 branches in a place for options and strength or 2 in a place - i put some notes in a picture.

Then i would also wire the new trunk line for what you plan to keep - Agree with the point shibui make about keeping the major direction changes already being established by the branches. Just be slightly removing any straighter sections. Put a towel over any sacrifice branches so you know what it will look like when you cut them off eventually.

[Ryceman3]

In terms of the styling above the soil line I would do things a bit different in reference to the images above(but that doesn’t make me right). In terms of the roots I’d agree 100% you should look to do something to sort them out should you want a decent future bonsai. I would be doing that at next repot though, going reasonably hard assuming the tree maintains health, but the highlighted stuff is what needs addressing primarily. Would I reduce branching on the first whorl before that? Probably, but I’ll leave that up to you and how you see any existing or potential reverse taper issues. Developing pines and refining those already developed are 2 different things that are not often separated in basic bonsai conversation. This pine appears to be in development not refinement, so needs to be worked accordingly I think. It all probably comes down to how you see the tree “finished”.

[CameronB]

Again thanks so much for the advice you guys are so open with your knowledge and I really appreciate it.
I think I will leave any root work till repotting next year, with my limited experience I just feel safer doing it that way. Thanks so much for the detailed photo and notes this has definitely helped me think and understand things a lot more.
I have spent the last two days or so reading and re-reading the ‘pine project’ thread, so much information and research to take in.
Thanks to Shibui for pointing me in that direction and to you Ryceman3 for the post and information contained in it, your journey is so inspiring and I wish you the best with it.
Part of the reason I decided to take looking after the trees I have more seriously and understand them better (not just these pines but others I have as well) is to be patient with the process and your post on the pines at least shows me that patience will pay off

[CameronB]

In terms of the styling above the soil line I would do things a bit different in reference to the images above(but that doesn’t make me right)……

Would be interested in your thoughts regarding branch / trunk cutting, I would like to develop the trunk thickness a fair bit more so as previously said by Shibui was leaning toward trunk cutting just above first branch junction leaving 2 branches and a third one to become the new leader. I like the idea of this method as one of the branches at this point does look to be good for letting the tee have natural bends and shape without too much wiring. But would definitely like to hear your thoughts after seeing what you have achieved with your pines.

[Ryceman3]

This is based off the 2 images you gave, without tilting things or looking at the tree from other directions, all much easier (and more practical) to do in real life.
I like this view better as a front. The graft area looks “neater” to me and the reverse taper that often comes from grafting is less obvious. The down side is the trunk looks to be heading away from the front (blue bit), but simply tilting, or possibly trying for some subtle bend in there might lessen that. Angling from the viewer isn’t generally the end of the world at the trunk base in any case, provided the movement in the tree further up reconciles this with a shift forward.
I would look at the yellow primarily as the part to keep, removing the red. I would probably take all the other branches at that whorl off, keep the main trunk for now but reduce low foliage on it.
This will open up the remaining yellow branches to light/air flow and encourage budding. I would even look to wire those remaining parts to maximise this if needed. The new shoots look reasonably advanced, but you can wait for a bit if you’re worried about damaging this springs growth until it hardens off more. All of this work in fact can ideally be done in early autumn at any rate, but now isn’t too bad a time either.
I think the remaining needles/foliage on the yellow selected branches is more compact/closer to the trunk than other options… another reason I lean towards this design.
Like I said though, all of this doesn’t mean I’m right, I may not even be reading the photo correctly, but just my take on it because you asked.

[shibui]

all of this doesn’t mean I’m right, I may not even be reading the photo correctly,

This is absolutely important. Looking at a photo only gives a 2D view so we can't see the back and forward movement that may or may not be there. We can't see any branches that may be hidden behind other branches or where they start or finish. Looking in 3D gives a much better idea of what is possible and what is less useful. You need to think through any opinions and see if they work in practice with the tree you have or actually take it to someone more experienced that you trust for an in person appraisal and options.
In the end there will almost always be a number of possible options for a stock tree. No one single answer will be the 'right' one until you decide it is and start work.

The 2 offers so far appear quite similar and align with my thoughts too though I'm reluctant to choose any of the 4 low branches without a more detailed look at them.

Take note of R3 advice to keep the main trunk for a year or 2 as a sacrifice branch. You'll see some sacrifice branches through R3's thread. They really add extra thickness quick but can sometimes also add reverse taper. Tgooboon also has a new sacrifice branch included in his option (orange line on the right branch) which would be a better option if the existing main trunk is adding reverse taper.

[CameronB]

….
In the end there will almost always be a number of possible options for a stock tree. No one single answer will be the 'right' one until you decide it is and start …

Completely understand this and have realised I need to make a decision based on the advice given from all three of you and my own long term view of what I want from the tree.
Just wanted to get a few opinions as I have quickly realised like you say there are always different possibilities for the same tree.
This tree was bought to learn from so no doubt I’ll make some decisions I’ll later wish I hadn’t and hopefully learn from those for future trees
I really appreciate all of you sharing you knowledge, no matter how much reading you do nothing beats talking to people with real world knowledge

[CameronB]

So made some decisions and some cuts today, based on all your advice and looking through things. Went more along the lines of what Ryceman3 suggested and left the main trunk in place hoping to help thicken the trunk a bit quicker. I did this work on the basis of this plant being a 3-5 year project so now the patience begins
One question regarding the red pine ; should I remove the needles at this point on the trunk section ? Or just leave for now?
I also made some decisions on the black pine I got have included the photos here as well, I understand I didn’t show any precut photos of this so a bit hard to get perspective on what I did (the trunk was pre wired when I got it, I just re wired today and changed angle a bit)

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[Ryceman3]

So made some decisions and some cuts today, based on all your advice and looking through things. Went more along the lines of what Ryceman3 suggested and left the main trunk in place hoping to help thicken the trunk a bit quicker. I did this work on the basis of this plant being a 3-5 year project...

Any decision is better than no decision (which results in regret when it becomes clear a decision was needed) so you can at least now begin moving forward to the next dilemma.
I actually think the pruning is more like the scenario @tgooboon put forward, just from the other direction. Nothing wrong with that.
I think I would have kept the shoot marked with the blue arrow. From the original images it appeared to have a shorter "neck" (indicated by red line) which is an area unlikely to develop branching. This is probably more of an issue if you want a small finished tree though...
You can remove more smaller branches (green) near the top of the trunk sacrifice. In my experience a few stronger and longer shoots do more for trunk thickening than lots of shorter ones. Also helps keep the bottom branches exposed to light/air.
I would look to put movement in the yellow part in the future (doesn't have to be now ... autumn is also a good time) and when you do that try and give some hierarchy to the 2 remaining branches. As of now these branches are both pointing up and are roughly the same in strength/girth etc. One of these needs to be set as the trunk (to get taller and thicker) and the other is the branch (will be shortened and thinner). Given the long neck on the left branch, I would now be inclined to try and bend to make this the future trunkline and utilise the right branch as the first branch. This would require bending/twisting (and being mindful of the graft while you do it) to get the left side to sit higher than the right at the fork/junction where they meet (the opposite looks to be true now).
Anyhow, just what I am seeing. Well done on taking a step forward. It can be a bit daunting but now you have given yourself something to move forward with.

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[Matthew]

Defiantly seems to have differant needles etc then my red.

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[CameronB]

Again thanks for the feedback R3 like you said was a bit daunting but at least I have a starting point now
Will definitely take your advice regarding the wiring of the trunk and branches, I had envisioned the left hand branch becoming the new trunk line as well. I just thought this had a natural line from the base of the tree which Shibui had mentioned to look for. I’ll remove some of the upper branches like you suggested as well.

Defiantly seems to have differant needles etc then my red.

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Is a dwarf cultivar of the Japanese red pine, Shibui mentioned the same thing so I think this is why it looks a bit different to a traditional red pine