Who is growing Pinus radiata (Monterey Pine)?

[Jow]

Ok,

Let me start by saying that i don’t want this topic to become a this species is good/ not good debate. I grow radiatas and will continue to. The reason i am starting this topic is to try to get some more information on who is growing them and the techniques they are using.

I really like the species for it rugged bark, and vigorous growth but i am still trying to get my head around a few things in the refining stages.

I made a thread a little while ago about one of my trees HERE which was the beginning of the discussion but i would like to further it here in its own thread. I have also posted a piece on my blog HERE hoping to get some overseas input.

What i would like to know from members here is a couple of things if you grow them:

1. What do you do to get back budding on older wood?
2. what do you do to reduce needle size?

[Jow]

I have tried a number of techniques with my own trees and have found the following:

1. Despite being told when i first grew them that "they almost bud back too much" they do not in fact bud back on wood older then a season or two. In fact they are far less likely to bud back on old wood then say Japanese black pines. The budding they do do (which can be heaps at times) tends to be confined to where needles are still growing.

2. Needle length has been a bit of a hit and miss game. I have 2 trees that have been treated pretty much the same for the last few seasons and one has unruly needles and the other has almost acceptable straight and neat needles. The only real difference between the trees is age. I don’t think that is the only factor as the younger tree has had short neat needles at time when the older tree had long unruly needles.
I have tried treating them like black pines and wasn't pleased with the results. I used the same timing as my black pines which may need substantial adjusting for radiatas. This year i have treated them like a white pine and i am more happy with those results, although the needle length on one of the trees is long.

If anyone else has experience with this species please share your results both good and bad. What worked, what didn’t and what do you plan to try next?

joe.

[rowan]

Since I only have starter stock I don't have any valuable information on needle size but as for back budding, I have found if you cut them back hard and often they will often throw out buds at the bases of branches and these buds can be used to grow new branches if the older one has not good budding. It takes time but starting again can work to make the trunks look older and more massive because of the now smaller branches and you can work on better ramification.

[Jow]

Since I only have starter stock I don't have any valuable information on needle size but as for back budding, I have found if you cut them back hard and often they will often throw out buds at the bases of branches and these buds can be used to grow new branches if the older one has not good budding. It takes time but starting again can work to make the trunks look older and more massive because of the now smaller branches and you can work on better ramification.

What age trees are you getting this budding back on the trunk in?

I have been considering grafting to get foliage where i want........

[kcpoole]

I have collected 2 last year and both have back budded low down on the trunk after collecting and chopping back to above the the first branch
one is about 50mm diameter and the other about 80mm. Both have the mature, fissured bark so can they be called mature?

aside from that, no other info sorry except they we both barerooted when collected

Ken

[Jow]

Interesting Ken.

I have seen them bud back this way in xmass tree farms where they are cut back to a stump and then bud back and regrow from there.

Perhaps this is a result of large sap flow and big cut backs. Some sort of survuval mechanism?
What is strangs is that i have not noticed them budding back much on old branches or trunks once in bonsai cultivation. Has anyone been able to produce these results on old radiata bonsai that have been in cultivation for some time?

Black pines seem to throw several buds back on old wood every time you seasonally cut back the new candles. Radiatas don't seem to do that very much but instead throw a huge clump of buds around the cut site in amoungst the needles.

Anyone else have any thoughts to share?

[bodhidharma]

G'day Jow, i have been interested in Radiata and Sylvestris for a while now and have a few in training. I am layering a new root system on one now and used the bridging layer and that seems to be working. It seems that if you dont get them early they grow a straight trunk which lends itself to formal upright and they are impressive if you get a good one. I treat mine the same as a Red Pine and have achieved back budding on main branches by end tipping but they have not back budded on the main trunk for extra branching. The one i have hopes for, thankfully, does not need any more branches.

[Jow]

Hi Diederik, thanks for sharing your experiences.

When you say you treaty them like a red pine could you please eleborate a little on what you do and when as i treat my red pines the same as my black pines.

When you say you get back budding on branches, how old would you guess the wood be that you are getting buds to appear on?

Joe

[Scott Roxburgh]

Interesting Ken.

I have seen them bud back this way in xmass tree farms where they are cut back to a stump and then bud back and regrow from there.

Perhaps this is a result of large sap flow and big cut backs. Some sort of survuval mechanism?
What is strangs is that i have not noticed them budding back much on old branches or trunks once in bonsai cultivation. Has anyone been able to produce these results on old radiata bonsai that have been in cultivation for some time?

Black pines seem to throw several buds back on old wood every time you seasonally cut back the new candles. Radiatas don't seem to do that very much but instead throw a huge clump of buds around the cut site in amoungst the needles.

Anyone else have any thoughts to share?

I only have experience with Radiata in large boxes and in the ground.

The ones in large boxes do not seem as vigorous, I agree that they seem to struggle to bud back with yearly maintenance but not with large cuts. Thankfully they lend them selves to approach grafting quite well. About the same time as a JBP.

The ones in the ground have been given some large cuts, back to the lowest branch and seem to throw out buds quite well. I am looking to dig and pot up a number of these this year.

All that I have barerooted have died, the best way I have found is to half fill a box with pumice/gravel, remove a little native soil so that some root tips are extending out of the clay rootball and back fill with pumice/gravel, feed and water. I am yet to remove all of the native soil from my collected trees.

They do grow from seedling cuttings, with large amounts of fert and water/sun they put on good growth.

[NathanM]

I've got one only, and it's reasonably sized. But it hasn't been in trianing long. I bought it as raw material. I'm going to repot it nowish, as per how we do Black pine up here. It seems to be abck budding fairly well, but I haven't had it very long either. I would like tog et a few more and watch their growth habit a little more closely.
I had been planning on planting it into the same mix i'm going to repot my JBP into (50% diatomite) but might lessen that percentage?

[Jow]

Thanks for the replies Scott and Nathan.

Scott, you observations seem similar to mine in that trees in the ground are far more likely to produce back budding on older wood than those in containers. It seems very rare for container grown bonsai to produce buds on older wood.

When re-potting trees with a large amount of original field soil in the rootball i have found that doing half the rootball one year and then the second half the following year a fairly safe way of doing it. To be super safe you could pot as you described above and then start the half half method in following repots.

It is good that they approach graft readily. I have been told you can even thread graft them. I will be trying some bud grafts this spring.

Nathan. I think that 50% diatomite would be fine. I have a large radiate that has been in 100% for the last 3 years and hasn’t looked back (see attached image or full progression HERE).

IMG_0585web.jpg

[craigw60]

Hi Jow, as you know I have a bit of a soft spot for radiata as bonsai. i think the fact that they are a noxious weed in this country and therefore ripe for collection makes them a perfect candidate for us in Australia, for those who like growing bonsai from seedlings radiata seedlings can be collected very easily and saves time mucking around raising them yourself.
The budding back issue is I think just a question of age, they are a very fast growing species so a tree growing wild may seem quite old but could only be between 5-10 years if it has cracked bark. I have 2 trees here with a bit of age to them 1 I have grown from a seedling collected in the early eighties and 1 I bought from an older grower which was collected in the early seventies, there is no chance of either of these trees back budding.
I have a bit of a routine going with the foliage that I have been following for years, any day now the foliage will be thinned the new shoots shortened and needles top and bottom pulled. I cut the new shoots back as hard as I can to keep the branching compact, when the pruning is being done I also keep an eye out for more than 2 shoots at anyone point. Over the winter the new buds will develop and as this is happening they need to be thinned to 2 shoots from any one point. During the spring the candles extend and I pinch any which are to strong. I find that over late spring and all summer the radiata look really good with nice short and even needles, by this time of year they are a bit hairy and in need of some foliage work.
Craigw

[Mojo Moyogi]

Hi Jow, my experience with P.radiata is mostly limited to fairly well behaved trees with established branches, I do have a couple at approx. 30yrs old that would benefit from interior branching in places where there are currently no buds.

I was thinking that perhaps a strategy for getting Radiata to back bud on older wood may be to feed the tree well throughout the growing season and cut deep into the vigourous growth late in the season. I'm not sure if this would be appropriate if you are trying to force budding on existing branches while retaining the structure that you have, it would more likely be a procedure for rebuilding branches from scratch.

With your prefered soil, plenty of water and feed, I'd think that you would be able to get Radiata growing quite vigorously, despite the confines of a bonsai container.

Cheers,
Mojo

[bodhidharma]

Nice pine Jow, should have entered it in the Literati comp Your question prompted me to read my notes and the Red pine training is basically the same as JBP's. I have growing and training directions from a collaboration of notes from various Japanese articles including John Naka and collated by Jeffry Farman.This is the tree i am working on and learning with. I also have some Red Pines that i want to develop and i think they are a little similar to Radiata's.

[Jow]

Hi Jow, as you know I have a bit of a soft spot for radiata as bonsai. i think the fact that they are a noxious weed in this country and therefore ripe for collection makes them a perfect candidate for us in Australia, for those who like growing bonsai from seedlings radiata seedlings can be collected very easily and saves time mucking around raising them yourself.
The budding back issue is I think just a question of age, they are a very fast growing species so a tree growing wild may seem quite old but could only be between 5-10 years if it has cracked bark. I have 2 trees here with a bit of age to them 1 I have grown from a seedling collected in the early eighties and 1 I bought from an older grower which was collected in the early seventies, there is no chance of either of these trees back budding.
I have a bit of a routine going with the foliage that I have been following for years, any day now the foliage will be thinned the new shoots shortened and needles top and bottom pulled. I cut the new shoots back as hard as I can to keep the branching compact, when the pruning is being done I also keep an eye out for more than 2 shoots at anyone point. Over the winter the new buds will develop and as this is happening they need to be thinned to 2 shoots from any one point. During the spring the candles extend and I pinch any which are to strong. I find that over late spring and all summer the radiata look really good with nice short and even needles, by this time of year they are a bit hairy and in need of some foliage work.
Craigw

Hi Craig,

I also have a soft spot for them and think they are quite under used as they are so readily digable.

Am i right in thinking that you are pruning this years shoots around this time of year? I have not tried to prune this time of year on radiatas and might have to give it a go. How do you find the budding after pruning?

Thanks for the input.