Japanese White Pine Techniques

Post by **NBPCA** » September 22nd, 2011, 10:50 am

Hi all,

I have been requested to start a thread on Japanese White Pine techniques.

Before moving to Canberra I only dabbled with JWP but since being down here have found them a lovely tree to grow in slightly cooler(than Sydney) climate.

They seem a bit daunting at first but I have found them really easy to grow , trim and maintain.

I will take some photos but as it is Floriade here now my time is busy and a bit hit and miss.

If you have just started with a JWP and have done nothing to it at all here is where you start.(Maintainance wise)

First in Springtime you would select the buds on the tree even as they emerge is OK. Leave groups of two all over eliminating the strongest buds/candles at the top 1/3rd of the tree; leave medium strength buds/candles at the middle of the tree and leave strongest buds/candles in the lower 1/3rd. Leave all weak internal buds alone.

Then you candle snap the new growth (starting with the strongest anywhere on the tree) and leave say 8, 10 12 sets of needles or more.

A week or so late the slower candles will have caught up to the same size and you candle snap them.

Another week or two later you can candle snap the weakest/ slowest candles if needed or leave alone. (We do another trim in January so don't worry too much if you think you are getting it wrong)

Warning. The only thing you have to make sure is if you want the branch/bud/ candle to stay alive and give more buds later on then dont candle snap/ cut any harder back than say 4 sets of needles but 5 or 6 as a minimum is better.

Lets get some discussion and pics going here from those who have experience growing these lovely trees and lot of questions from those wishing to.

I will explain the summer prune later in the thread as it is spring now.

Grant

Post by **NBPCA** » September 22nd, 2011, 11:53 am

FNP close ups 004 - Copy.JPG

FNP close ups 005 - Copy.JPG

FNP close ups 006 - Copy.JPG

Jow · Post by **Jow** » September 22nd, 2011, 2:35 pm

That is pretty much how i grow mine aswell. I only have one white pine and it is in the shohin range. As a result i have found that holding off feeding until needles have hardened off as well as keeping it on the dry side equates to short needles that are in nice scale to the rest of the tree.

I also pluck/ cut old needles and some of the new needles to ballance growth in Autumn.

I use to have two whites, but it turns out they dont cope well with 40+ degree days and i lost the top out of the tree i do have as well as an entire second tree during the Black saturday summer. Protect them from extreme heat if you can.

FatMingsBonsai · Post by **FatMingsBonsai** » September 22nd, 2011, 7:22 pm

Great topic and thread to discuss/learn from

Cheers Grant

KIRKY · Post by **KIRKY** » September 22nd, 2011, 10:30 pm

Great to get some news on JWP. Look forward to the next installments and more photos please

Cheers Kirky

LLK · Post by **LLK** » September 23rd, 2011, 7:51 am

Hi Grant,

Yes, the JWP's are lovely trees and I agree that they are easy to maintain. The one drawback, in my experience, is that they are invariably grafted onto JBP stock, a faster grower with quite different bark, so that you get a trunk in two sections, as it were, one rough and one fairly smooth. There has been a lot written about possible ways to create a transition from rough to smooth, but so far without really worthwhile results. A few years ago I tried making small incisions in the smooth bark just above the graft and will post a photo of the result a bit later. Maybe some other members here have a better solution?

Lisa

Grant Bowie · Post by **Grant Bowie** » September 23rd, 2011, 8:58 am

When Hiro Saito (a master in FNP from north of Tokyo) was at my house a few years ago I asked the same thing about the smooth bark above the graft.

He said not to worry. The bark on the FNP will become rough and lovely and match the bark below the graft in 70 or 80 years.

Grant

bodhidharma · Post by **bodhidharma** » September 23rd, 2011, 9:38 am

Grant Bowie wrote: He said not to worry. The bark on the FNP will become rough and lovely and match the bark below the graft in 70 or 80 years.

Aint that the truth. I am working on quiet a mature white pine with this problem but i can wait. I also have a young one that i am developing on its own roots and i will see how it progress's

Grant Bowie · Post by **Grant Bowie** » September 23rd, 2011, 10:39 am

bodhidharma wrote:
Grant Bowie wrote: He said not to worry. The bark on the FNP will become rough and lovely and match the bark below the graft in 70 or 80 years.
Aint that the truth. I am working on quiet a mature white pine with this problem but i can wait. I also have a young one that i am developing on its own roots and i will see how it progress's

I grew some from seed many years ago and after 5 years or so they were still tiny.

We did get some grafted down very low on the root stock to avoid that problem but I ended up selling them all.

grant

Grant Bowie · Post by **Grant Bowie** » September 23rd, 2011, 10:42 am

Jow wrote:That is pretty much how i grow mine aswell. I only have one white pine and it is in the shohin range. As a result i have found that holding off feeding until needles have hardened off as well as keeping it on the dry side equates to short needles that are in nice scale to the rest of the tree.

I also pluck/ cut old needles and some of the new needles to ballance growth in Autumn.

I use to have two whites, but it turns out they dont cope well with 40+ degree days and i lost the top out of the tree i do have as well as an entire second tree during the Black saturday summer. Protect them from extreme heat if you can.

Really sad about losing one during the heat. I got a bit of sunburn on one but that was about it luckily.

You people in Melbourne have had a horrid run at times with drought, 48 degrees and windy, and hail!

Grant

Jow · Post by **Jow** » September 23rd, 2011, 11:12 am

Grant Bowie wrote:
Jow wrote:That is pretty much how i grow mine aswell. I only have one white pine and it is in the shohin range. As a result i have found that holding off feeding until needles have hardened off as well as keeping it on the dry side equates to short needles that are in nice scale to the rest of the tree.

I also pluck/ cut old needles and some of the new needles to ballance growth in Autumn.

I use to have two whites, but it turns out they dont cope well with 40+ degree days and i lost the top out of the tree i do have as well as an entire second tree during the Black saturday summer. Protect them from extreme heat if you can.
Really sad about losing one during the heat. I got a bit of sunburn on one but that was about it luckily.

You people in Melbourne have had a horrid run at times with drought, 48 degrees and windy, and hail!

Grant

With any luck we done see temps like that again for a long time. If we do i will be bringing what i can inside for protection.

LLK · Post by **LLK** » September 23rd, 2011, 1:56 pm

When Hiro Saito (a master in FNP from north of Tokyo) was at my house a few years ago I asked the same thing about the smooth bark above the graft.

He said not to worry. The bark on the FNP will become rough and lovely and match the bark below the graft in 70 or 80 years.

Grant

He probably never even saw the humour in his reply, being a died-in-the-wool Japanese bonsai master, used to trees passing from one generation to the next in the most natural way. Here in the West, we like things speeded up a bit.

Anyway, below is a photo of the JWP bark with incisions above the graft, 3 years after doing them.
I find the book "Pines", published by Bonsai Today in their Masters Series, invaluable, esp. when it comes to the JWP. But Kimura glosses over the transition from rough bark to smooth, merely saying that the rough bark characteristic of the JWP develops later above the graft. How much later he doesn't specify!
Incidentally, at the last CBS meeting Michael T. showed a small airlayered JWP, which was growing well.

Lisa

FEX · Post by **FEX** » September 23rd, 2011, 5:42 pm

hi, i bought a few jwp's on ebay, not sure if they are Jwp or not, was told they are a different variety, they do not look like my older 18 yr, Jwp,these have darker and longer,thinner needles,, i doub't ,the needles will change over time?, that is, look like the lighter,shorter needles in the top. pictures ,(Grant's), although i have read, it takes several years for a Jwp to start looking like its parent tree... can anybody id this little 3 yr old,,.is it a Jwp?, or not.... i have 5 of these, i hope they are.....cheers...joe

nishiki3 · Post by **nishiki3** » September 23rd, 2011, 5:53 pm

they look like my pinus armandii. i will post photos of them tomorrow

Grant Bowie · Post by **Grant Bowie** » September 23rd, 2011, 6:10 pm

FEX wrote:hi, i bought a few jwp's on ebay, not sure if they are Jwp or not, was told they are a different variety, they do not look like my older 18 yr, Jwp,these have darker and longer,thinner needles,, i doub't ,the needles will change over time?, that is, look like the lighter,shorter needles in the top. pictures ,(Grant's), although i have read, it takes several years for a Jwp to start looking like its parent tree... can anybody id this little 3 yr old,,.is it a Jwp?, or not.... i have 5 of these, i hope they are.....cheers...joe

Could still be JWP. My memory is that they were very shaggy when young.

Grant

AusBonsai

Japanese White Pine Techniques

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