Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Forum for discussion of Pines, Junipers, Cedar etc as bonsai.
Woody11
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 28
Joined: October 31st, 2010, 4:36 pm
Favorite Species: Japanese black pine
Bonsai Age: 5
Location: Gold Coast

Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Woody11 »

Hi all

Thought I'd just share some of my recent experience with growing JBPs in Townsville.

When I first moved up here 2 years ago, I was adamantly told by the president of the local bonsai club that pines did poorly in Townsville :shake: . It was attributed to the unique dry tropics climate up here and that pines did not like heat and humidity. That said, she also contradicted herself the very next sentence that someone near Cairns ( a warmer and more humid location) grew superb pines but could not tell me more :palm: .

Being a stubborn fool, I figured given Hawaii successfully grows JBPs (see Lindsay Farr's Papa Kaneshiro video), perhaps the above advice could be grouped with the general myth of pine bonsai and taken with a degree of doubt.

So what's happened thus far:

Repotted two of my more mature JBPs in late July. I gave them a reasonable root prune and within 4 weeks they have solidly anchored themselves in their pots. They haven't missed a beat. Perhaps the use of Auxinome helped with root growth. I'm using Auxinome for the first time and find it seems to have some effect - more than Seasol anyway which some experts state is all hype and marketing anyway. (Interestingly, I've checked and found there's little scientific evidence backing the claims Seasol and associated seaweed products make - and that's coming from someone who grows organic vegies etc) Needle growth reflects the root growth and the shoots are all over. Notably like other posters have indicated in their experience, my candle lengths aren't very long at all. Maybe 5 cm or so. I thought this may reflect poor growing conditions, but the shoots are all over the place so maybe shorter candles are a feature of the tropics? Perhaps it's because the trees were only recently repotted. I did get long candles >10 cm on other training trees though that were not repotted.

The mix I've tried up here is Maidenwell 2-7 mm diatomite mixed with some local Quican rock (really just small basalt gravel - a bit like Coco Pops) and some organic Debco potting mix. The Quican rock acts a bit like rock dust and seems to give my trees a deep green colour. BTW I use the Debco organic mix because it's basically just composted pine bark without the water saving crystals you get in conventional mixes. I just find the crystals swell up during prolonged rain and disrupts the pot. Ideally if I had more time i'd use sieved composted pine bark but the Debco mix seems to do the job straight from the bag. Besides because I'm only using the pine bark to increase my potting mix's CEC ratio and are relying on the diatomite and Quican rock for the air porosity and drainage properties, I figured i could cut a small corner and save some hassle of sieving. Fertiliser comes in the forms of osmocote, chicken manure-based pellets and worm juice. I find the mix rewets really easily and allows me to give the trees a wet-dry cycle pines and other conifers appreciate. According to the Japanese, this cycling also encourages coniferous trees to fill their pots with roots. It's just hard to do with pine bark based mixes.

I have not noted any mycorrhizial growth. This is despite the use of predominantly organic fertilsers and allowing a wet-dry cycle with my watering. I suspect it's because of my growing conditions. Mycorrhizae on pines in nature are most important in enviroments where the soil is cold and infertile. It helps pines absorb the last bit of nutrient from their surrounding soil. (Also note temperate climate gardeners also find organic fertilsers don't work as well for them because the microbial activity needed to convert organic fertilsers to usable nutrients plants can absorb is much lower in cold soil. Thus I suspect mycorrhizae partnerships are more important in pines grown in much colder climates found in Europe and North America) How relevant is this to trees in a warm climate which are heavily fertilised? I suspect this is why the mycorrhizae I had previously has now disappeared.

As a side note, 4 of my trees have flowered and I've got 6 small pine cones underway on sacrifice branches. Amazingly, one of my one year old seedlings I'd sowed myself had some male flowers appear. The trees with cones are upwards of 5 years old. Apparently according to conifer texts I've found, JBPs are well known or becoming sexually mature at a young age i.e. several years. This compares quite differently to most other Pinus species which are upwards of 20 years.

I've hand pollinated the cones with male pollen from another tree. Note that JBPs can have male and female flowers (i.e. cones) on the same plant simultaneously like other pines. However, while pines can self pollinate, the successful fertilisation rate drops down to roughly 50%. This is a phenomenon seen in other pine species too. I presume it's a mechanism which encourages genetic diversification but allows propagation if the tree is by itself and is unable to be fertilised by another tree. The cones take about 2 years to mature, so i will see what happens. I do note others (e.g. Shibui) have stated their seeds from their first cone crops on their younger trees yielded no viable seeds. So it will be interesting to see. I guess the other thing to consider is that are my trees trying the replicate because they're happy or because they're stressed? After all, plants flower and fruit better when stressed.

I sowed JBP seeds last year and had a 70% germination rate by the tissue towelling method Brent Walston described. I tried again this year and got a 91% germination rate after sowing direct to a loose potting mixing. There was no need for stratification which is so commonly advised in all the forums. That advice has been wrongly anounced by some and unfortunately is repeated onwards. JBPs are not high mountain pines and do not rely on a chilling period to remove the natural seed retardents found in other Pinus species.

Anyway, lots of info there. I hope it helps. Now all I need to work out is a needle size reduction method that works in the tropics. need to do more research :reading:
Jak
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 41
Joined: August 31st, 2011, 12:50 pm
Favorite Species: Japanese deciduous
Bonsai Age: 1
Location: Townsville, QLD
Contact:

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Jak »

Hey mate,
awesome thread just what i needed. Im from Townsville also and would really love a JBP but the only info i could find wasn't much help for the tropics, except in the case of Hawaii and Cairns so iv'e been a bit reluctant too. Great to hear someones had success, thanks for taking the time. I have to get myself one :yes:
Any chance you will be at the meet next month? and if so do you want to part with one of your trees ;)

cheers Jak
User avatar
Dumper
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 660
Joined: June 3rd, 2009, 8:35 am
Bonsai Age: 0
Location: Nunawading
Been thanked: 1 time
Contact:

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Dumper »

Im starting to grow jbp in malaysia tropics here.
i've nothing to report yet. once i experiment more. i will share my results.

what i was told here is that jbp hates the tropics rain water and the sudden increase of humidity level right after the rain.

John
User avatar
kcpoole
Perpetual Learner
Perpetual Learner
Posts: 12272
Joined: November 12th, 2008, 4:02 pm
Favorite Species: Maple
Bonsai Age: 15
Bonsai Club: the School Of Bonsai
Location: Western Sydney, NSW, Australia
Has thanked: 17 times
Been thanked: 84 times
Contact:

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by kcpoole »

Awesome Post Woody :yes:
I have heard that JBP do OK up north
I am going to Link this threat from Our Wiki page on Pines no so we can never lose it.. Gold start to you :clap:

Ken
Check out our Wiki for awesome bonsai information www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki
What is Bonsai? http://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index.php?title=Bonsai
What should I do now? http://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index.php?title=Newbie
How do I grow a Bonsai? http://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index. ... _a_Bonsai?
Visit a Bonsai nursery to see some real nice trees http://www.ausbonsai.com.au/wiki/index. ... _Nurseries
Woody11
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 28
Joined: October 31st, 2010, 4:36 pm
Favorite Species: Japanese black pine
Bonsai Age: 5
Location: Gold Coast

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Woody11 »

Thanks for the generous replies guys. It's good to see people sharing their experiences. I'm hoping our visitors from overseas chime in. For those that use other international forums, please feel free to suggest this post to others so as to collate a bank of information. No bonsai books talk about this stuff. Neither do other blogs and websites because they're generally located in temperate climates. I guess we have to do it ourselves. I would ordinarily post also on other forums to try a gather more information but I'm aiming to have a one-stop shop for thebenefit of everyone (especially me! :tu: ) if you will.

As others have stated, it's hard to get reliable information regarding JBPs in the tropics aside from people echoing one another and stating that JBPs don't survive in such a climate. It usually comes from those who either haven't tried. It's funny but I posted on Bonsainut similar information and was hit with some discouraging replies from people who live in snow for part of the year! :lost: I've been in contact with other posters from Hawaii who have reported similar experiences. In many ways, this post was aiming to redress that inbalance and create an evidence base that's more than just rumours.I also think part of the problem is that those who have had success with JBPs in the tropics are usually not english speakers. This makes it hard for information to disseminate widely.

Hi Jak. I'm glad this post is helping some that is so local. Sorry but I'm not a member of the local bonsai club. I'm glad that this post has encouraged you to procure a JBP or three. I'll warn you - it is addictive. One thing I've found is that JBPs are in some ways more forgiving in the tropics in that with the prolonged growing season (i.e. almost continuous), any mistakes in care are usually overcome by the growth rate of the trees. They only seem to pause during the extremes of the year i.e. for a couple of weeks each during the middle of summer and winter (BTW check the BOM website for climate data for Townsville that will help you predict timings etc). By comparison, JBPs in temperate climates would only get one shot per year. So any mistakes in let's say pruning etc only delay the tree by several months rather than a whole year or two. Sure some errors in training are harder to reverse in JBPs than other species (especially figs in the tropics) but remember, JBPs are quite tough trees. The more experienced hands here and overseas attest to that. Try things with your trees. Do your research. Take a educated guess where appropriate. Find what works for you. Consider new ideas. JBPs do take more time and probably are more ideal for more experienced hobbyists, but it's hard to get experience unless you break a few.
Craig
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2227
Joined: July 27th, 2010, 12:12 am
Favorite Species: Melaleuca
Bonsai Age: 10
Contact:

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Craig »

any pics of your Pines please Woody11 :flag:
User avatar
NBPCA
National Bonsai and Penjing Collection of Australia
National Bonsai and Penjing Collection of Australia
Posts: 1562
Joined: December 9th, 2009, 11:44 am
Favorite Species: All
Bonsai Age: 14
Bonsai Club: All Australian Clubs
Location: Canberra
Has thanked: 19 times
Been thanked: 64 times
Contact:

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by NBPCA »

Excellent post.

You are taking what is written and spoken and testing for yourself in your environment, and importantly experimenting.

I love it when people say you can't do something and you show them you can. Love breaking down dogma about certain subjects.



Grant
Jak
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 41
Joined: August 31st, 2011, 12:50 pm
Favorite Species: Japanese deciduous
Bonsai Age: 1
Location: Townsville, QLD
Contact:

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Jak »

Hi Jak. I'm glad this post is helping some that is so local. Sorry but I'm not a member of the local bonsai club. I'm glad that this post has encouraged you to procure a JBP or three. I'll warn you - it is addictive. One thing I've found is that JBPs are in some ways more forgiving in the tropics in that with the prolonged growing season (i.e. almost continuous), any mistakes in care are usually overcome by the growth rate of the trees. They only seem to pause during the extremes of the year i.e. for a couple of weeks each during the middle of summer and winter (BTW check the BOM website for climate data for Townsville that will help you predict timings etc). By comparison, JBPs in temperate climates would only get one shot per year. So any mistakes in let's say pruning etc only delay the tree by several months rather than a whole year or two. Sure some errors in training are harder to reverse in JBPs than other species (especially figs in the tropics) but remember, JBPs are quite tough trees. The more experienced hands here and overseas attest to that. Try things with your trees. Do your research. Take a educated guess where appropriate. Find what works for you. Consider new ideas. JBPs do take more time and probably are more ideal for more experienced hobbyists, but it's hard to get experience unless you break a few.[/quote]

Mate your a champ, very informative! Im not a member either but i was planning on checking it out.
I couldn't have said it better " Try things with your trees. Do your research. Take a educated guess where appropriate. Find what works for you. Consider new ideas. JBPs do take more time and probably are more ideal for more experienced hobbyists, but it's hard to get experience unless you break a few "
I've bought a few books over the last year and its taught me so much, but breaking a few sticks in pots is the only way to learn.
Recently finished Deborah Koreshoffs book bonsai its art sciece history and philosophy, so many things i haven't thought of, theres so much to the hobby, I'll never be bored again.
Thanks for the BOM website, that'll be a big help overtime. If your ever going to sell one of your pride and joys let me know, after repotting and pruning back my 20 yr old fig pretty hard today I'm up for a new challenge while its growing for the next year.

Interested in anything you have to say, Abs lacks nrth queenslanders, its good reading stuff on the tropics
cheers
Insane
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 10
Joined: January 29th, 2011, 7:41 pm
Favorite Species: JBP
Bonsai Age: 0
Bonsai Club: nill
Location: townsville

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Insane »

hi all im from the ville love my jbp had it about 12 months and its not dead yet
Woody11
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 28
Joined: October 31st, 2010, 4:36 pm
Favorite Species: Japanese black pine
Bonsai Age: 5
Location: Gold Coast

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Woody11 »

Grant - thanks for the compliment. To hear it from someone so influential in the bonsai sphere is great.

Insane - good going with your tree. Could you share a little more on your experience and technqiue in keeping your tree alive?

Dumper- which state of Malaysia did you move to? Are you finding any specific issues to contend with? Malaysia is generally considerably more humid throughout the year unlike Townsville where we only really get humidity during the warmer parts of the year. Simlarly our rain is concentrated into a wet season whereas depending on which part of Malaysia you're in, the rain occurs year round with a extra dose during the monsoon.

Kcpoole - thanks for linking this thread up with the wiki site.Like I said earlier, I really want this info to be shared and discussed. Up here in the tropics, most people think we are limited to figs, bougies, relevant natives and maybe a juniper or two. The knowledge that JBPs can be just adds to that variety and allows us to craft bonsai styles which are more like what we see in japan etc.

Craig- my trees are all still the in development stages so they're not much to look at.I'm just working on trunks and branches at the moment. Hell they're noteven in trays. So i'm not sure a pic would be even worth it!
Insane
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 10
Joined: January 29th, 2011, 7:41 pm
Favorite Species: JBP
Bonsai Age: 0
Bonsai Club: nill
Location: townsville

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Insane »

hi all the way i keep my jbp alive is water twice a day seasol once a week it gets part sun its not the best looking bonsai but its only my first Image (sorry if pic to large first time posting pic ) i think the arms are to long on this one owell thats my 2c worth
Woody11
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 28
Joined: October 31st, 2010, 4:36 pm
Favorite Species: Japanese black pine
Bonsai Age: 5
Location: Gold Coast

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Woody11 »

Well there you go:

Insane, with his first ever bonsai, has successfully kept his JBP alive in the tropics for about 12 months with a relatively simple care regime.

Well done Insane. It goes to show there's no black magic involved in keeping JBPs alive in the tropics.
Insane
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 10
Joined: January 29th, 2011, 7:41 pm
Favorite Species: JBP
Bonsai Age: 0
Bonsai Club: nill
Location: townsville

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Insane »

this is one i got from bunnings about 2 months ago Image im going to let it go in a pot for a few years and c how it goes my other jbp came from daydawn and it had been there for a while before i got it had to save for it $150
User avatar
Ash
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 720
Joined: April 22nd, 2009, 10:23 am
Favorite Species: Ficus
Bonsai Age: 25
Bonsai Club: ausbonsai
Location: North Queensland
Has thanked: 4 times
Been thanked: 10 times
Contact:

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Ash »

Hi all -

There are some Japanese Black pines here in the Wet Tropics and also in the Dry tropics that have been grown in our environment for over twenty years. Visit the Cairns bonsai show next weekend and you can see for yourself.

cheers
Ash
User avatar
Tony Bebb
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Aussie Bonsai Fan
Posts: 664
Joined: November 25th, 2008, 10:42 pm
Favorite Species: Conifers/Pines
Bonsai Age: 28
Bonsai Club: Bonsai Society of Queensland Inc.
Location: Brisbane
Been thanked: 5 times
Contact:

Re: Growing Japanese Black Pines in the tropics

Post by Tony Bebb »

Great info from locals never goes astray. JBP's will survive a range of climates, but the results will usually vary. Like Grant I love it when 'It can't be done' turns into 'Look what I did'. Well done Woody11

I will be in Townsville on the 12th & 13th doing workshops and demo again at Norma's, and there have been JBP's worked on there in the past that have all been fine. Norma also has them for sale and they are doing quite well.

Two things I would recommend is a good, open free draining mix with gravel/pebble particle size of 3-5mm or larger if pots are big. Also to treat them with fongarid when the humidity increases and before the wet season. Treat every 6-8 weeks for a preventative against rot fungus.

Enjoy your JBP's. I love them

Tony
Imagination is more important than knowledge - Albert Einstein
Click here to visit my Blog - A Bonsai Journey
Post Reply

Return to “Pines and Junipers”