Pyracantha Berries

[MelaQuin]

Oh I did the damn dirty deed today. I was given a whip of a pyracantha 15 months ago and I raffiaed it and wired it and bend it hard and it zoomed ahead, developing into a full cascade with great branching and the upcoming shape really nice. It was healthy and robust and from a single stem with a few side shoots it quickly developed the cascade basics. Keeping it under control was the main work. This spring it was covered in flowers and soon covered in berries. That was all well and good but it stopped growing. Healthy still but the rampant growth was not happening. Because it still needs another year or two of strong branch/foliage pad development and the berries were obviously slowing the growth considerably I removed them all today. Sad but necessary. I put it off and put it off hoping that growth would happen but it wasn't and I think the tree is going to be good enough to be worth this sacrifice. But at least I know it is a profuse flowerer.

One other pyracantha is full of berries and shooting hard at the same time but it is a different leafed pyracantha and obviously one can do it and the other can't. Better to develop the tree and look forward to berries another year then to slow the growth and lose a year's development. Not happy with what I did but I will get a better tree sooner for the deed.

Pyra cascade 2010-08.jpg

[dennismc]

Hi Melaquin

The old truism that u should cut off flower/fruit because it uses up energy that could be better spent in developing the tree never ceases to amaze me.

There is no scientific basis for this practice. The tree is doing "what comes naturally" and in some cases since the timing of growth cycle is built around flowering fruiting it could actually slow down further development. Fortunately, Pyracantha are very active growers and should not be set back by removing the flowers/fruit.

I am looking forward to seeing more of this cascade.

regards

Dennis Mc

[damo19]

Hi Mel, I recently purchased a Pyracantha and have it in a large pot to fatten the trunk. It has also gone to berry, but these have stayed green. It has been nearly two months now, in your expeience how long do they normally take to change to red or orange?

Cheers,
Damo

[nealweb]

Interesting opinion Dennis, and from someone with alot of experience. I wonder if different species respond differently to this. I took the flowers off most of my azaleas this year after hearing that they never allow them to flower until the tree is fully developed in the commercial nurseries in Japan. I believe it worked very well for the satsuki. I have a few yochiyo so I took the flowers off all but one and they deflowered ones have really powered away compared to the one that is flowering now. They spent all spring growing while it was making flowers. On a few karume however they didn't romp away as well, they just kept on trying to make more flowers instead of new growth, I had to keep on removing them for a long time.
I think I will keep removing flowers on young or weak azaleas as it comes recommended by the most experienced growers. I wonder about other species and can intuitively (no scientific knowledge/proof) understand what you are saying about disrupting natural cycles however. I wonder if any of the horts have any experiences or have been taught about this?

neal.

[Pup]

Dan Barton one of Europe's most experienced Bonsai growers, and Authors, in his book, The Bonsai Book, on page 65 has a beautiful photograph of a magnificent Nagaski crab apple in full bloom, and then another full of fruit.
At the side of the fruiting one is a caption. Unfortunately the fruit was left on too long, which overtaxed the tree's reserves and it died.
A simple but, as Dennis said a factual truism do not leave too much of the fruit on the tree just some, to admire better still photgraph it then take it off.

Cheers Pup

[craigw60]

I don't have any formal qualifications but I do grow plants for a living and I certainly remove flowers/fruit on plants I want to grow quickly and believe that it makes a big difference, your experience with azalea Neal I believe translates to a lot of species.
Craigw

[Ash]

This is an interesting topic and it is interesting to see very experienced growers are divided in their opinions. However there is a lot of scientific evidence in this field to go by.

A quick Google Scholar search (which is accessible to anyone) of plant energy budgets, flowering energy budgets, fruit energy budgets and in particular fruit removal shows that there are both rational and empirical reasons why the removal of reproductive parts does effect energy distribution in a plant energy budget. There is a whole issues of the journal Plant Growth Regulation (2000 Vol 31- the whole book) with eleven scientific papers on fruit removal and its impact on plant growth in stone fruit which are in the Rosaceae- same family as Pyracantha. If you are a slipper orchid grower see Primack et al. (1994) Am. J. Bot. There are plenty of others too if you want to have a dig.

In summary flowers, fruit, buds, stems and roots are all energy sinks and mature leaves are an energy source> Leaves produce photosynthates for local use and for distribution to other parts of the plant. Therefore flowers, fruit, buds and all the rest compete for energy. The green parts of flower buds and immature fruit are photosynthesising but as a whole the flower and fruit is still an energy sink. Removal of them frees up photosynthates (energy) for distribution elsewhere. Flowers and fruit are also significant nutrient sinks- particularly for P, K and S.

This energy budget is of little significance if the ratio of leaf area to reproductive mass is high. However in a plant in which the ratio of leaf area to reproductive mass is low it becomes very relevant.

From personal experience I can vouch that the removal of fruit (or even better the prevention of fruit set by screening out pollinators) in the Cooktown Orchid Dendrobium bigibbum is strongly correlated with larger cane growth the following season. Plants that support several fruit grow smaller canes and have higher mortality the following season than those prevented. Conversely the removal of inflorescense buds early season in the same plant is of little benefit because D. bigibbum will continue to sprout inflorescence buds again and again as each is removed over several months until the cane is exhausted. Note that the flower size and fruit mass of a Cooktown orchid is very large compared with its leaf area and its stem storage capacity.

regards

Ash

[nealweb]

Thanks Pup, I remember seeing that pic and book now.
Thanks Craig, experience and unbiased observation are worth as much as any qualification.
Thanks Ash, for saving us all alot of reading with your excellent summary of the research and personal observations.
So I think I will be very certain to remove all seed pods, as always. I will also keep removing the flowers from my satsuki that are developing or are not strong. Its just the white Mrs Kints that behaved alot like your hilariously named orchid Ash - Dendrobium Biggy-bum They just kept on trying to bud and actually look a little tired for all the effort. Maybe I will give them a good sized pot, lots of food and water and just let them flower next year, then remove the flowers as soon as they start to fade a little.

Cheers for the read

n.

[GavinG]

Thanks for the science, Ash.

Gavin

[MelaQuin]

Thank you for all that. WIthin a week after berry removal several branchlets were shooting new leaves.

The pyracantha that is well berried and shooting like Ned Kelly is also heavily foliaged so that could account for the difference in growth patterns. The cascade looks more relaxed [probably less stressed would be a better way of saying it] since the berries were removed so I am looking forward to a renewed surge of growth in the next few months and I think next year I will limit the berries when they develop, leave just a few for fun but keep the tree growing strongly. But again, by that stage it should have a lot more foliage and can sustain the berries better.

And to the other question about colouring... wait until the temps change in autumn for the berries to colour up. They will be green until late summer.