clerodendrum heavy pruning

[PWC]

I purchased this clerodendrum a few weeks ago and would like to bring the branching back closer to the trunk as it getting to far away.

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I believe that Clerodendrum bud back on old wood but can you cut back past foliage and expect budding? If it is when would be the best time to prune?

[TimIAm]

This is just my experience. Because cutting back hard always comes with risk.

I've got one that I've been growing for over 20 years and have cut back hard many times. Main reason being that my interest in everything comes and goes and my tree puts out a lot of growth every year. So if left unchecked, it ends up looking like a bush. Last time I did a hard cut back (beyond green on every branch except one) on mine was within the last 6 months, prior to that I had it growing unchecked for 2 seasons in a larger container.

My experience with cutting beyond green is that it's generally been ok, but I have had dieback. For me, it's only been on thinner/younger branches. Because it grows so well, I've just trimmed off the younger branch and there's always been new growth to replace it within a season.

Over the years I've pruned my tree hard in each of the seasons in different years with the same effect. If I told you when I think is best, I'm sure someone on here would come and contradict what I suggest. Each time I've pruned it, it hasn't thrown out new growth immediately, but around 4-6 weeks after pruning it puts out new buds and then roars back to life.

Be aware that these trees when healthy, during the growing season will put out long straight growth. It makes it tricky to bring growth in, because it's not like an elm where you can guide new growth. In a week, you could end up with branches where you want them but all straight and 20cm long. Which means you end up with longer distance between internodes than you would want.

Also, once branches harden off they are easy to snap. In the past I've tried wiring and also tie-down and I've lost more than one good branch trying to shape hardened branches.

Benefits of this tree is that after years you get rewarded with one of the best looking trunks around. They also put out so much root growth, they are very easy to get awesome looking root spread at the base of the tree. You will also get lots of growth throughout the season, so lots to work with.

There are photos of a few of them in this thread viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30246 which will give you and idea of what can be achieved. I don't know how to link directly, but there is one in the 10:12pm set of photos, rbs-16 which shows some incredible compact growth. So it can be done.

[PWC]

This is just my experience. Because cutting back hard always comes with risk.

I've got one that I've been growing for over 20 years and have cut back hard many times. Main reason being that my interest in everything comes and goes and my tree puts out a lot of growth every year. So if left unchecked, it ends up looking like a bush. Last time I did a hard cut back (beyond green on every branch except one) on mine was within the last 6 months, prior to that I had it growing unchecked for 2 seasons in a larger container.

My experience with cutting beyond green is that it's generally been ok, but I have had dieback. For me, it's only been on thinner/younger branches. Because it grows so well, I've just trimmed off the younger branch and there's always been new growth to replace it within a season.

Over the years I've pruned my tree hard in each of the seasons in different years with the same effect. If I told you when I think is best, I'm sure someone on here would come and contradict what I suggest. Each time I've pruned it, it hasn't thrown out new growth immediately, but around 4-6 weeks after pruning it puts out new buds and then roars back to life.

Be aware that these trees when healthy, during the growing season will put out long straight growth. It makes it tricky to bring growth in, because it's not like an elm where you can guide new growth. In a week, you could end up with branches where you want them but all straight and 20cm long. Which means you end up with longer distance between internodes than you would want.

Also, once branches harden off they are easy to snap. In the past I've tried wiring and also tie-down and I've lost more than one good branch trying to shape hardened branches.

Benefits of this tree is that after years you get rewarded with one of the best looking trunks around. They also put out so much root growth, they are very easy to get awesome looking root spread at the base of the tree. You will also get lots of growth throughout the season, so lots to work with.

There are photos of a few of them in this thread viewtopic.php?f=25&t=30246 which will give you and idea of what can be achieved. I don't know how to link directly, but there is one in the 10:12pm set of photos, rbs-16 which shows some incredible compact growth. So it can be done.

Thanks for you reply, I have removed some heavy growth in the apex and upper trunk but was not sure about the reduction of primary branches back beyond the green. My initial thought was to wait until summer to do the cut back to allow the tree to strengthen, not having any experience with this tree as to it's growth habits during the previous year.

[TimIAm]

If you have any doubts, you could always wait until Summer to see how Spring growth comes out, so you're confident it's healthy and pushing out strong growth. I also suggest, if you haven't already, slipping it out of its pot to have a quick look at the roots because these push out a lot of really long windy roots that can quickly fill a pot in a season.

Vigorous growth both above and below ground will give you good confidence that the plant is healthy.

[melbrackstone]

These plants produce a very quick tree if you can stay on top of the growth. At this time of year they can be cut back hard to help produce ramification, but be quick to cut again once they start, because you can very quickly lose refinement if left too long. I have to keep mine very close at hand so they can be kept in check. There's a fellow who grows them well here in Brisbane who has defoliated all of his refined trees just recently. That will also help with ramification. If you're just looking to grow trunk or branches though, by all means let them grow long til you have close to the sizes you want, then cut back.

[PWC]

It's been just over a year since I cut this one back and has responded well as I was told it would. Now that I know how it grows I need to make some decisions on the future of the tree. I am concerned about the bar branch at the lower level, I initially decided to leave both and let the one on the right extend to thicken the branch to get it closer to the girth of the left one.

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I now think that it will lead to forming a large bulge that would detract from the existing trunk line. If i remove it that will leave a big empty space on that side of the tree. The other option would be to remove both branches or possibly all branches on the trunk and see what it gives me. That of course would set the refinement process back but may give me better long term options. The tree is about 50 cm high and trunk at at base 5-6cm.

All opinions welcome, if it were yours what would you do? For those who would say bin it please don't as this is my most advanced tree.

[TimIAm]

Thanks for posting an update. It's looking great

With this species it likes to put out pairs of opposing buds along the leader, so it's easy to end up with bar branches.

This is just my suggestion and based on one flat picture, so balance all your options before doing any major work and make your own choices.

I don't think you can avoid having to remove the lower bar branch on the right. I think the growing angle of the left branch is nicer (not pointing up like the right hand side). I think even if you kept the right branch, you are going to have a challenge getting it into a nice position because the branches on this species are stiff and break easy when bent.

If you look at the example below, it doesn't look too bad with that branch removed. I also think if there are buds on the back of the tree where I have indicated with pink lines you could have a nice looking tree. I think these branches coming from the back will give your tree some depth and especially with the lower branch on the right side, it will look nicer if you can have it growing from the back than the one coming from the side.

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Because this species is not very flexible once the branches set, I think you need to be thinking about your secondary branching now. Start developing the foliage on the first branch and just be careful with the second branch on the right side that it doesn't get stuck growing at an odd angle because you will then need to cut it back and restart. You can see that the tree naturally wants to grow its branches very upright. If you let it, this is how they will stay, but you need to consider if that's the look you want for the final design. Consider your lowest, thickest branch is dipping. The second highest branch on the left goes up and then down. Think about consistency of you final design.

I'm not saying every branch needs to be identical, but there does need to be some sort of harmony in the finished design and if more than half of the branches are reaching up and out 45 degrees from the main trunk the other branches might attract too much visual attention by sticking out.

I also suggest you remove the vertical growing branch coming from the lower left hand branch.

You've got a nice looking trunk line and plenty to work with, especially as these trees back-bud fairly easily, there's no way I'd be putting this in the bin.


Here is closer attempt at what I'm suggesting:

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[PWC]

Thanks for your thoughts Tim, I take your points all valid. I can see what you are saying in regards to the branch angles possibly being to severe on the higher branches. I think they could still be altered with a bit of work, bring them down a bit but to a lesser extent than that lowest branch. I believe as you get closer to the apex the growth habit tends to be more upright.

The lower left branch divides and goes toward the back, the branch then divides again, one is the vertical branch you refer to for removal and I agree.

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I do have another option for branches lower down to the right further around to the back as you suggest. That is to thread graft a cutting I took when I cut back last year. But that would need to be lower than the first left side branch as any higher up would conflict with the second right side branch above.

[TimIAm]

The lower left branch divides and goes toward the back, the branch then divides again

Yeah, I spotted that from the earlier photos you had up. I think everything else from those branches fit in, just that vertical branch is quite thick where it comes straight up off the branch.

That is to thread graft a cutting I took when I cut back last year.

If you had a bud at the back lower down or you thread graft lower down that will be just as good as having it above the branch. Just that you will have to grow it out for longer to get something that is thicker than the left hand side (if you do it lower, to keep proportion). If you did thread graft then it wouldn't necessarily be a back branch because you can then decide the angle, I just thought maybe there might be some buds around the back you could use. I do also suggest you still have a back branch somewhere to add depth (which you may already have, look at the additional photos you just posted).

I look forward to a future update


*edit: Just looking again at the photos you posted. Is it possible the front gets significantly more sun than the back? I notice you have quite a few buds on the front side. Maybe another option is to feed and give the back the majority of sun from now until Autumn to try and get some budding on the back?

[Keep Calm and Ramify]

It's showing some age & has got some really nice bark texture! Agree that the thinner low RHS branch should probably be removed. After that I would closely look at simply rotating the tree to possibly choose a more desirable front view?
Hard to tell from just the one most recent pic. This would be the first step I would do if it were mine.
I don't think the current pot shape/colour is doing you any favors in this instance.

[PWC]

No buds on the back at this time, I will remove the right hand lowest branch and see what might come later in the summer. It might put out something useful. If not I'll consider a thread graft next spring.

[PWC]

I decided to go ahead with the thread graft as we still have at least 3 months of strong growing season here. There was an old scar from a previous branch removal that was done by the bonsai nursery before I purchase it. I thought it would help cover the old scar, it is however almost directly under the Brach above it. My intention is to select growth that I can direct forward and develop it more to the front assuming that the graft succeeds.
There was a little bit of pruning to remove a bit of upward growth as well, just have to keep more vigilant and keep it under control.

[dansai]

Is that thread graft going through the centre of the old scar? If so the chance of the thread graft taking is virtually zero unless the bark has rolled in to meet where the thread graft came through. The cambium from the donor tree needs to merge with the cambium of the main tree in order for it to be supplied nutrients and water from the main tree. Otherwise the thread will just expand until it can't anymore and then slowly die off.

[PWC]

Is that thread graft going through the centre of the old scar? If so the chance of the thread graft taking is virtually zero unless the bark has rolled in to meet where the thread graft came through. The cambium from the donor tree needs to merge with the cambium of the main tree in order for it to be supplied nutrients and water from the main tree. Otherwise the thread will just expand until it can't anymore and then slowly die off.

The graft is to top left of the dead wood only 3-4mm, the idea is to continue closing the scar by continually exposing the cambium on the old scar so it joins the expanding branch as it grows out. I would think it would be similar situation to the bridging effect that occurs when an air layer does just that. The hope is twofold to get a branch where I want one and close over an old scar.

Time will tell it always does, nothing to lose really and worth trying. If nothing else I will have learnt something one way or the other.