Cedrus: deodara vs atlantica

[MJL]

Hi, near where I live, I have some really old Cedars. To my eye ... 5 are definitely deodara with weeping foliage but three are possibly different - not such a weeping habit, especially in the new growth and I think these less weeping, denser growth trees might be atlantica

Today I picked up some cones as I walked by .... I didn't have my camera to take photos at the time. Perhaps I will tomorrow or another day this week.Is it possible to tell the specific tree by the cones?

This cone (below) was defiantly from what I think are deodara.

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These male pollen cones (below) were on mass underneath the three that I think are Atlantica.

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Strangely - what I think are Deodara had no pollen cones on the ground underneath?!

I have tried to look at pictures online but it is difficult to tell.

Any thoughts?

[treeman]

Mark, If you can find cones with viable seed in them, grab me a couple of hundred.
I need/want to do some grafting but can't get good seed.

[MJL]

Mark, If you can find cones with viable seed in them, grab me a couple of hundred.
I need/want to do some grafting but can't get good seed.

Ok... describe what a cone with viable seed looks like and I'll collect and deliver while keeping an appropriate distance - no problem.

[treeman]

Mark, If you can find cones with viable seed in them, grab me a couple of hundred.
I need/want to do some grafting but can't get good seed.

Ok... describe what a cone with viable seed looks like and I'll collect and deliver while keeping an appropriate distance - no problem.

You grab a mature ( large, brown and starting loosen up a bit) cone firmly with both hands and twist. It should break apart and you'll find the winged seed (if any) embedded at the bottom of the scales of the cone. Plump seeds are good if they sink in water after 24 hours. (they may be empty) Dry or shrivelled ones are no good. Once they are soaked they cannot dry out again. Store in damp mix or moss.

[MJL]

Mark, If you can find cones with viable seed in them, grab me a couple of hundred.
I need/want to do some grafting but can't get good seed.

Ok... describe what a cone with viable seed looks like and I'll collect and deliver while keeping an appropriate distance - no problem.

You grab a mature ( large, brown and starting loosen up a bit) cone firmly with both hands and twist. It should break apart and you'll find the winged seed (if any) embedded at the bottom of the scales of the cone. Plump seeds are good if they sink in water after 24 hours. (they may be empty) Dry or shrivelled ones are no good. Once they are soaked they cannot dry out again. Store in damp mix or moss.

So I grabbed and twisted the one I picked up... easy peasy.

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I'll follow other instructions in due course and if it works, I'll go collecting.

[treeman]

Looks like there might be some seeds in there....

[shibui]

seeds is the easy bit.
Viable seed is just a touch harder.

[MJL]

Very interesting where this forum takes you. I've never really looked at cones ... I mean, I've looked at them but I haven't studied them. Cool things these cedar cones. My sense is that the ones on the ground are there due to the wind (attached to small broken) branches and or knocked off by cockatoos and galahs who seems to be feasting way up high.

What is amazing is a couple of cones on the ground had opened up a bit and those fully open just collapsed upon the lightest of touch... much like an ashen piece of wood. Quote beautiful to watch a cone fall apart like that ...

Interesting.

[MJL]

Apologies for the cr@p and limited photos but here are the trees at sunrise this morning ... You can see one of the branches that decided to become a tree ... and there is another tree with a similar habit but my phone ran out of charge... cactus.
The last photo is of a younger cedar planted by council perhaps 5-6+ years ago. Interesting the difference in colour of the younger tree's bark. (When that tree was planted it was already quite a large tree but nothing in comparison to the other trees.)

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And Happy Mother's Day to all the mum's our there

[Daluke]

How’d you go with seed viability testing?

I found a few cones...

None viable doing the sink or float test

[treeman]

How’d you go with seed viability testing?

I found a few cones...

None viable doing the sink or float test

They all float in the beginning because there is air trapped in the skin. You have to soak them in warm water for at least 24 -36 hours. That is - start with almost hot water and let it cool....

[alpineart]

Hi MJL ,here in a few pics of some over grown test plots up here

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. With approx 15 acres of Deodara and 5 acres of Atlantica , there is plenty of cones however only a few tree's in both plots have viable seed .

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These plots were planted in 1920-1922 by the old Blacksmith who planted most of the softwood test plot between Myrtleford , Bright and Stanley .

I collected dozens of seedling over 20 years ago, all the Atlas cedar trunks here are self sow seedlings from these plots . The volume of tree's in these plots one would think the self sow seedlings would be everywhere when actually I believe on 1-3 trees in the Atlas plot and possible 1-2 tree's in the Deodara plot have viable seed .

I collected cones from various trees from around the plots but none struck , most passed the water test . The same result with the test plot of Pinus contorta a 20 acre plot with only a couple of tree's with viable seed .

As Shibui stated finding the seed is easy . find viable seed can be hit and miss . I noted today and have since I found these plots none have flat tops even after 100 years of growth .

Cheers Alpineart

[MJL]

Yes, it seems that viable seed is gold! thanks for the post and backstory.

Hey Alpine, probably a silly observation from a suburbanite but wouldn't a plantation test plot force/encourage a different growth pattern ... a bit like pines chasing the sun in a pine plantation. The internal trees and branches would die forcing growth up and conical at the top. Perhaps there might be some variation at the edge often plantation. Hence more likely to get a layered, flatter branch structure in open going conditions.

[alpineart]

Hi MJL . there's a lot of varying factors in mother nature , Climate , Altitude , location even Genetics . The outer tree's in the Atlas plot are ice blue while the inner tree's are green , yet in my yard the tree's under the canopy of garden tree's or under shade sales in summer are blue and the outside in the open trainers are green . That's completely opposite to the observation in the test plots .

The outer tree's have flat layered branches and pointed apexes . There are numerous Deodara cedars planted throughout the town here , some have single trunks pointed apexes others have multi trunks .with flatter apexes . None of the test plot trees have multi trunk but there are a couple that have a lower branch shoot skyward

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I have a multi trunked Deodara bonsai in the making , it has flat tops based on a tree here in the park , i couldn't find a multi trunk cedar bonsai on the net so I made one . I also have a single trunk pointed apex based on the test plot observations and other street tree's

Not all cedars have flat tops , not all cedars have single trunks , and not all cedars have viable seed . If you find good seed count your blessings .

Cheers . Alpine

[Brekel]

There is a park near me with a long walking track, two rows of cedars each side. About 200 of them were planted in the early 1900's as memorials ro WWI soldiers. Not many have flat tops. Some have twin trunks. The original omes are atlantica and deodara, some have been replaced by libani.
I grabbed a few cones a few weeks back, about 25% of seeds collected passed the viability test. I put them in tbe fridge 2 weeks ago some have started to germinate.

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