Twisted mini JBP - how to avoid reverse taper

[squizzy]

Hi jow.

I guess I thought the wire marks would grow out quicker then that. May have to put more thought into removing wire at the sacrifice if some if the fattening? Other option is that I do all 70 and get 10 good ones that have ok taper.

I like you theory on the 10% thickness thing also. I would never have considered these trees being any smaller then shohin.

Squizz

[MoGanic]

Forgive my ignorance, but why do you all leave the wire to bite in like that?
As Jason had shown in the photos he took in Japan, the wire scar is still clearly visible. It might grow out in a few more years with more thickening and bark forming flaky texture. But I would think that the spiral scar will still be noticeable . So I'm not quite sure of the advantage of it.

Regards

I recall seeing a field grower of pines in Japan using this technique and the spiral scars were still visible up to very old age - they seem to always be "almost gone".

The issue is once you create that division, it never really joins back up. The plates formed on jbp will be split along the length of the wire bite and will stay that way pretty much forever. At best, it will become difficult to see in photos, from a distance, and to the untrained eye.

Again this is just based on what I saw and the discussion that was had with the grower.

Note: this was in a video - if I can find it I will.

In other words, if anyone is hoping these will look the same as a JBP grown normally and thickened through years of growth - forget it. But they might get close enough that most people wont notice.

Cheers,
Mo


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[treebuilder]

Hi Mate, maybe with some of them you could use the main part as a sacrifice and grow the next stage of the tree from the very small shoot. This would remove the second reverse taper area . The grey circle(2) may end up looking better later on or you couls possible take a small concave cut from the area and it will fill in with less pronounced reverse taper, or leave it and turn it into a Shari on the lower bend at a later stage. gd luck with them .

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[MoGanic]

Sorry guys, cannot seem to find the video online - might have been removed.

Cheers,
Mo

Edit: FOUND IT

https://vimeo.com/8052130

God that was an effort lol.

Mo

[gerald randall]

I have been experimenting for a couple of years with this technique. I have been severely criticised for using the technique by purists. The reality is that it thickens pines, junipers and cypresses much quicker. What I did the first few times was to shove the wire into the ground at the base of the tree and wire. Twist as I required. The result, reverse taper. The wire at the bottom of the tree is just too lose to dig in as quickly as the top. What I also noticed was that the more it bends, the more it digs in. Logic dictates that the wire tightens with the bend. This is not the case with the bottom of the tree as the lose wire doesn't have the leverage to hold to the tree and create a significant bend. So, I now do this when I'm repotting. Take off some of the upper roots, or work through them. Affix the wire as low down as possible by making a ring and a twist directly to the tree. The ring will bite as quickly as the rest. Then twist the wire close together near the bottom and less so as I go up the tree. Thus, tight and close wIring at the bottom and loser and further apart on the way up. No reverse taper. What I must stress is that I have snapped a couple of trees as the wire inside the tree does seem to weaken the structure in the first few years. But, we are all learning something new everyday. I definitely do. Still trying to figure this technique out. Unfortunately I'm a first generation bonsai grower. I hope this helps though.

[Grant Bowie]

I heard from someone after we got back from Japan that they use wire twice on the tree.

Once with the tree small.

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Then a few years later another wire is used' probably leaving the wider apart marks seen earlier in the thread.

So 2 wires; not just one.

Anyone tried this?

Grant

[alpineart]

I heard from someone after we got back from Japan that they use wire twice on the tree.

Once with the tree small.

P1000173.jpg

Then a few years later another wire is used' probably leaving the wider apart marks seen earlier in the thread.

So 2 wires; not just one.

Anyone tried this?

Grant

Hi Grant , I have found with the few JBP's i have developing that 2 wires used 1 or 2 seasons apart does reduce the reverse taper and restricts the swelling from the first wire , not only on pines but deciduiousas well . I believe that the first wire should begin well below in amongst the roots to prevent reverse taper in the first place . Yes i have trunks here with reverse taper as i was too slack to spend the extra time feeding the wire in and around the roots .Another season and they should be sorted by wiring below the roots

Most wire from the base by sticking the wire in the ground and winding it around the base , if it is placed around and in between the roots the swelling is uniform and the reverse taper is less prevelent or not at all

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Hope these help . Cheers Alpine

[xIIRevoEvoS]

From my post about JBP needle plucking, I just bought self 2 starter JBP like yours and will be an experiment

[rodm]

Hi every one,
I seem to of lost the point here. If this technique causes a lot of reverse taper why use it or do it? Isn't it better to grow the tree in the ground for a number of years with heaps of good fert and use a couple of sacrifice branches to thicken up the trunk? Doesn't this way ends up with more natural looking bark? After all ain't we trying to copy natural trees?
Cheers Rod

[Grant Bowie]

Hi every one,
I seem to of lost the point here. If this technique causes a lot of reverse taper why use it or do it? Isn't it better to grow the tree in the ground for a number of years with heaps of good fert and use a couple of sacrifice branches to thicken up the trunk? Doesn't this way ends up with more natural looking bark? After all ain't we trying to copy natural trees?
Cheers Rod

The point is the trunk thickens dramatically quicker using this method. More likely to get nice low, interesting bends and yes, swelling.

Don't use it if you are not sure or not wanting to experiment.

The tree trunks are eventually massive and I don't think reverse taper is a problem at all; maybe 1 in a thousand.

Grant

[rodm]

Most of the great trees in the bonsai world have very good taper going the right way up. I've not seen any great trees with reverse tapers. It wouldn't take all that long to create good thick tapers for Shohin size trees
Cheers Rod

[PeterH]

I haven't been following this thread but I have tried this Technic with 20 JBP over the past 3 years and haven't had a problem with reverse taper. I do use colanders to grow them in and also use these colanders for larger trees that have reverse taper problems. This seem to work for my trees,

Regards,

Peter

[squizzy]

Hi all

Certainly some great input on this thread so thanks. Thinking I need to repot some or all of these seedlings soon so will try and implement some techniques discussed here.

I think the wire being more restricted at the base where the roots flair out my help a lot. I have some seedlings that didn't get the site treatment and will be experimenting with another theory.

Stay posted

Squizz

[Jow]

I read the below blog post this morning and thought it might be interesting in regards to the reverse taper issues. If only Black pines layered as easily as deciduous trees.

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/fwnt1093/16575078.html

And this is interesting in regards to how you can use swelling to your advantage.

http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/fwnt1093/16572234.html

Joe

[rodm]

Ok people,
I was always told that scarring was very hard to eliminate and takes time. I can understand that this wiring is and will certainly thicken the trunks, but if time is on your side you could follow a method which I feel less harsh. Researching in Bonsai Today #20 an article by Kusida Matsuo on Black Pine from Seed, where by he grows jbp to pottable size for shohin in 5-6 years, no harsh wiring, no scarring to have to eliminate, seems very simple to me!
Yes I do research my techniques and I do experiment, but not in a big way as some. This only my opinion , as my collection only small compared to some
Cheers Rod