Soil Supply

[kcpoole]

Also the biggest deterrent to use commercial mixes (and in fact any organic mix), is the curl grub infestations my plants suffer from when I used them. Now with inorganic substrate I have not seen any in my pots

I see no reason why curl grubs should prefer organic over mineral mixes. I have had bad infestations in my soil but this did not translate to any problem in the pots. (curl grubs eat live roots)

Before I started to use Inorganic mixes, at repot, every tree I unpotted was infested with grub.
I had up to that time lost many trees to them. This was the main reason that started me down the path of inorganic mixes and since then I have not had 1 grub in a grow or Bonsai pot.

Why they do not like these mixes is unknown really and there has been much discussion on several forums about them, The prevailing thoughts are that the grubs ingest some of the sharp material and cannot then feed. Whatever the reason, it is a fact that anyone who uses a soil with more than 30% diatomite will have no occurence of Curl grub in there pots.

Ken

[kcpoole]

I plan on experimenting my own bonsai mix on some starter plants.

The experimenting has already been done for you (many...many...many times). .

Agreed

Some of the testing and posting of results on this site over the years with inorganic mediums.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=40
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2569&hilit=+test ( See the linked tests within this thread)

Here is a comprehensive pooting mix test thread performed by the NBPCA. It is well worth a read again
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5745&start=0


There is much discussion and dissention about various potting mediums and everyone thinks theirs is the duck guts, but in reality Everyone has different ideas, preconceptions and results. What works for 1 is not necessarily what works for the bloke next door.
I encourage everyone to have a go!, but do so under some sort of control conditions and do not change potting medium on important trees until you have tested them on test stock first.

Ken

[xIIRevoEvoS]

I plan on experimenting my own bonsai mix on some starter plants.

The experimenting has already been done for you (many...many...many times). .

Agreed

Some of the testing and posting of results on this site over the years with inorganic mediums.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=40
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2569&hilit=+test ( See the linked tests within this thread)

Here is a comprehensive pooting mix test thread performed by the NBPCA. It is well worth a read again
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=5745&start=0


There is much discussion and dissention about various potting mediums and everyone thinks theirs is the duck guts, but in reality Everyone has different ideas, preconceptions and results. What works for 1 is not necessarily what works for the bloke next door.
I encourage everyone to have a go!, but do so under some sort of control conditions and do not change potting medium on important trees until you have tested them on test stock first.

Ken

My main experiment will be on 2 starter jbp/maple and juni. I know its a bad idea to test on trees that are already in development.
Will read the threads later in the week once I have abit of time.

[Josh]

Ken

The other thing is I get a much better and finer rootball using my mix rather than standard mix.

Once again I think you also may be confusing mix for stock and mix for bonsai pots (but I'm not sure from what you write).

Not confused at all. I grow my stock plants and bonsai in the same mix. Stock plants are slightly larger size than the bonsai mix. This makes it easy to go from stock pot to bonsai pot as if I don't get every single peice of mix out of the roots it's not an issue as it's the same as the mix it's going in to.

There is no high quality commercial bonsai potting media available in the australian market (from what I have seen) Therefore we must prepare our own.

Lastly I too reuse my mix.

Treeman, I believe the OP asked about creating his own bonsai mix and is going to trial it on his stock plants first (OP correct me if I'm wrong) so I think you are the one that is confused. see original quote below

I plan on experimenting my own bonsai mix on some starter plants.
Would like to know where I would able to purchase Diatomite/Pumice/Zeolite/Pinebark?
What organic soil should I also get?
Whats the purpose of zeolite and how does it look like?

Re-using old mix is a very poor horticultural practice (unless you can heat treat it somehow)

Never had an issue with reusing my mix. If the tree had an issue I dispose of it but been doing it for a fair while now with no issues. I know in a commercial nursery it's not advisable but the there is a lot of things we do as bonsai people that are not acceptable in a standard nursery.

One other thing is by growing my trees on in the same mix as what I use in bonsai pots makes it really easy to reduce the rootball from a standard pot/grow box to a bonsai pot as I'm not trying to remove different soil from the rootball when repotting.

It's nice that it's easy for you but you really should bare root your trees (except pines) when you transfer. This is the best time to thourghly work on the roots.

As Ken said why totally bare root. By the time it's going into a bonsai pot it's already had a huge amount of root work done. As I work my trees they are reduced from large grow containers to smaller shallower ones until they go into a bonsai pot.

Quote by treeman "In fact I bought a batch of debco mix which was horrible with a pH of 7.5 and completely hydrophobic on drying. So obviously there are cases where human error plays a part".

So these companies that spend millions of dollars developing these mixes still get it wrong. This is a good enough reason to make your own mix. These companies are about making money, not providing you with the best product. If they could improve their mix but in doing so would loose 5% profit they are not going to do it, so just because they spend a lot developing mixes doesn't mean it's the best mix. It means it's the best mix at the highest profit.
As I said at the start, I believe the OP was actually asking about trialling a new bonsai mix and trialling it on stock trees. This totally changes the discussion we should be having, not talking about commercial potting mixes for standard nursery pots grown purely for profit. I still believe I get much better growth and better root systmes on my trees in my mix than a standard mix. I could go into trials we did in the nursery years ago but don't think it would make any difference so will save my breath. I will say we did find a product that far out grew the (expensive) standard mix we used but was more costly so didn't use it.

Josh

Josh.

[Jarad]

My main experiment will be on 2 starter jbp/maple and juni. I know its a bad idea to test on trees that are already in development.
Will read the threads later in the week once I have abit of time.

Good excuse to get more trees isn't it?

[kcpoole]

My main experiment will be on 2 starter jbp/maple and juni. I know its a bad idea to test on trees that are already in development.
Will read the threads later in the week once I have abit of time.

Good excuse to get more trees isn't it?

Nice segway to get back on topic and totally agree, Doing experiments and trying different things is an excelent way to justify buying more trees

Ken

[Phoenix238]

Good excuse to get more trees isn't it?

Might have to try this one haha

Been following this post with great interest, still working on coming up with a mix myself

[treeman]

But what is "commercial" potting mix, and to what "standard" does it comply with?
can you please please post a link to it or if not, I am sure you could post an exerpt from it here and not be breaking any rules.

Firstly, if everyone could please take the time to remove all irrelevent quotes from their reply and space each quote well it would make it much easier to decipher just who is saying what

The Standard is AS3743-1993. It may have changed.

What Brands / product names are formulated for this Bonsai standard Potting mix?

As I have said several times, It does NOT apply to bosai mixes

Who in the commercial Bonsai industry uses and recommends this Standard potting mix?

I do (for stock plants) and I'm pretty sure shibui does. I don't know what the others do

In Sydney I know that the 4 proprietors of the commercial nurseries here use their own proprietary bonsai mixes in both their growing on stock trees, and display quality Bonsai in Pots.

Not surprized. As I said several times, you need to prepare your own mix for shallow bosai containers. Using the same mix for stock is completly unnecessary.

Most of the members of the School of Bonsai use Ray Nescis own proprietary mix or Diatomite Based substrates. I know of no one in the school that use a soil from a commercial potting mix supplier.

Nor do I .....for bonsai

Who in the professional or bonsai industry uses these "standard" off the shelf mixes?

See above



I

cannot quite make out the nested quoting from your last 2 posts but

I have no idea what that means

Your original post did not differentialte that you use different ones?

Yes it did. But to be very clear.....I use commercially prepared bulk Debco mix for ALL my stock plants out of the ground. The only adjustments I make are for pines and some junipers where I add course sand and/or remove some of the fines. I use either osmocote or nutricote (6months) at the recommended rate. Organic feed for pines.
For ''finished trees'' I basically use fine grade Orchiata orchid bark 3-5mm @ 2-3 parts (particle size is adjusted for larger or smaller plants and/or containers and/or species); course river sand/and or diatomite @ 2-3 parts. I adjust the water and nutrient holding capacity with the inclusion of peat and/or composted coir with various quantities.
For flowering rosacea and some deciduous, I like to add sifted clay loam at about 15% when I can get it.

Now you say there is no Commercial Bonsai mix, but earlier you said there were standard Bonsai Mix?
I am confused as to the point you are trying to make?

Yes you do seem to be

Using "Commercial" potting mixes I would agree, but when using inorganic substrates as I do, it is standard practice to wash it out and reuse it in its entirety. It is one of the major benefits to using this type of potting substrate in the first place.
Why would it not be good practice? There are no inorganics in it, the washing, drying, sieving process removes anything else.

Well it does not remove any pathogens that may be present. But if it works for you go right ahead.

Why would there be a need to bare root at every repot?

Did I say that?

The only time I bare root a tree is in the initial styling / development of the root system. Once I have sorted the initial root chop or wiring if needed, then I rarely bare root. although many trees will cope, it is not needed and recovery faster If not bare rooted.

Bare rooting is usually not essential. However I find with some species less than 10 to 15 years old it very much helps when developing the nebari and also invigorates the tree tremendously. (AS LONG AS YOU PRUNE CORRECTLY) It should certainly be done when lifting from the ground or changing mixes. If not done regularly with plamatums for example you get die back of the branches. Azaleas also need periodic bare rooting and root clensing if they are to thrive in the long term.

When I pot up a tree into a bonsai pot, the only root work needed is to trim them to fit in the chosen pot. All the prep root work should be done well before potting up into its final pot.

That is a mistake as you will discover eventually. I have seen trees which have not been bare rooted for many years on the verge of death. Happens all the time

Ken

[Elmar]

Guess there are plenty of examples by others mentioned here previously (see Ken's post of links) - always thought that copying others gives you a head start then you can compare them to each other and pick the one you like best!

Better than reinventing the wheel!

To test, obviously several new trees of the same species are required! Or of several species, to be fair...


Cheers
EZ
Via Tapatalk

[Jarad]

Guess there are plenty of examples by others mentioned here previously (see Ken's post of links) - always thought that copying others gives you a head start then you can compare them to each other and pick the one you like best!

Better than reinventing the wheel!

To test, obviously several new trees of the same species are required! Or of several species, to be fair...


Cheers
EZ
Via Tapatalk

As well as wait several years to see the difference if there is any...

[MoGanic]

Potting mixes seem to be the most polarizing factor of Bonsai.

Ultimately, if you're tree's are healthy and growing... you're doing something right.

If you want to experiment and get some results better than what you were doing before, go for it. The results will speak for themselves and you don't need to validate them to anyone (except those willing to listen).

If you experiment and kill a few trees, then you've learned what not to do. Which in many cases is just as, if not more important, than learning what you should do.

Unfortunately I have no idea where to get anything in Sydney, as I'm a southerner (Melbourne) haha, but mate Kudos to you for trying out new approaches.

The worst thing we can do is sit back, content, that everything has already been discovered. There's always going to be better ways, methods and mediums but without experimenting no one will know what they are.

How can we seek to improve on our knowledge if we're not willing to challenge what's currently known? Didn't we think the world was flat at some point? Or that the horse was the only way to get around? Or that flying was reserved for the birds?

Sorry to rant on, and I can see that the discovery of an amazing new potting medium probably isn't en par with the discovery of flight - but you get my point...

PS - According to Uchi - the best medium for Black Pines and Junipers is 100% Blue Metal. I'm almost 90% sure that he didn't mean 100%, but I have tried blue metal on some conifers but haven't had enough for long enough to post some/any results. Might do that once the new house is up and running.

Cheers,
Mo

[Rory]

I plan on experimenting my own bonsai mix on some starter plants.
Would like to know where I would able to purchase Diatomite/Pumice/Zeolite/Pinebark?
What organic soil should I also get?
Whats the purpose of zeolite and how does it look like?

As Ken has pointed out his methods to trialling his own medium, which works for him....and
As Treeman has pointed out that he prefers using a set purchased medium and tweaking things for other species, which works for him....and
As others have reinforced their beliefs or views on what makes a great medium to use for established stock/raw stock etc, it is clear that everyone has different views on the best avenue to take, which is what makes this forum so great, because it allows the user to discern all different opinions trialled or recommended.

Let us all take this on board and again, we can all learn from it. Just like everyone else I have my own experiences on what medium to use and under what conditions, and thus I am not going to add to the opinions already voiced, but I can certainly understand that for each of you there is a unique view which effectively works for all of you, thus it is good to see so many different things working for us all.

I am amazed at the amount of time some of you have to prepare so many different mixes and it is good to see so much passion that you all have for it. Hopefully the trees are the ones that benefit from this thread, so live long and prosper little trees.

In regards to xIIRevoEvoSs original question, you can take comfort in realizing that you have opened pandoras' pot, and that there are many different experienced users with a lot of information and recommendations to digest. I personally always listen to everything everyone says, base their experience from their efforts and trees, and then formulate my own decision. You will probably find that your methods continually change as you learn more and more in this wonderful hobby. As bodhi once stated, the only thing for certain is that the longer you are in this hobby that the more your opinions and efforts will change, and by this, this is how we grow and learn. Never stop learning or listening, and remember that in such a unique hobby as this, one size does not fit all. Good luck with all your efforts.

[Elmar]

Nice.


Cheers
Elmar

[squizzy]

I have come to realise that if you want to find out about everyone's character on this forum you simply start a thread about soil mixes.
I dont think my mix has been the same from one pot to the next. When it come time to pot I simply find some things I have laying around and make a mix out of them. Today's mix was made from debco plugger zeolite and perlite. Probably the greatest mix ever made until next time I make a mix. Hahahaha. If you want to really confuse yourself you should buy a book by Hendricks and black called soils and growing medium? That will really clear it up for you.

So to the original question. You will find many different components from many different places. What you need to do is understand why certain things are added and what role they play in a mix. Then you can go nuts on different components to satisfy those needs for each and every tree out there. No two are exactly the same. Venus fly traps grow in pure peat moss from memory and cactus grow well in sand.

Good luck with it all. It's great fun and pretty rewarding finding what works for you.

Squizz

[Wayne R]

I plan on experimenting my own bonsai mix on some starter plants.

Congratulations, I believe you will have a boatload of fun and hopefully learn what works and equally what doesn't work.

Would like to know where I would able to purchase Diatomite/Pumice/Zeolite/Pinebark?

I'll let the NSW folks address this one. However, the big green shed has Zeo-Clor (which is zeolite) in its swimming pools section. The stuff is very fine tho with about 50% as dust.

What organic soil should I also get?

I'm, gonna go out on a limb here and recommend a brand (mods feel free to remove if this is a no no). Bailey's Premium Potting Mix appears to have a good amount of course sand in it, which I personally like. The stuff drains well and my seedlings and cuttings thrive in it. Then again, I also play both country and western music to them, talk to them in dulcet tones, never swear within 25 meters of them and fert them with love. But, it's probably the potting mix.

Whats the purpose of zeolite and how does it look like?

Zeolite is big on cation exchange capacity (CEC) which I believe helps plants/trees take up nutrients. Not sure if all zeolites look the same, but my Zeo-Clor looks like dusty brown sand *cough*.