OMG..things cost sooo much more 6 years later

[treeman]

Nursey grown stock can only reach a certain level of quality irrespective of the skill and commitment of the grower. There is no substitute for time and the harsh growing conditions created by nature.

Hmmm, I would not be so sure about these 2 statements.

[Davehsydney]

Nursey grown stock can only reach a certain level of quality irrespective of the skill and commitment of the grower. There is no substitute for time and the harsh growing conditions created by nature.

Hmmm, I would not be so sure about these 2 statements.

Hey Treeman. If you've got examples of any field grown stock that's as impressive and characterful as say a 800 year old rocky mountain juniper I would love to see them then send me the nursery details so i can get hold of some for myself

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[evan]

Hey Treeman. If you've got examples of any field grown stock that's as impressive and characterful as say a 800 year old rocky mountain juniper I would love to see them then send me the nursery details so i can get hold of some for myself

Sounds a bit selfish taking an 800 year old tree out of its habitat. Almost like taking the last wild white rhino and putting it in a zoo

I think there is definitely a limit to what we should collect as Yamadori, especially as we're trying to express nature in what we create. How are we gonna represent nature if we keep on removing it...

[Rory]

I think it is fairly safe to say that a great master can develop material that is as good as wild material. The main difference obviously being age yes. But I don't think wild material is better than someone who grows something to look natural no. I think they will each be judged on their own merits. As most people rightly point out, you still refine wild material once it is collected anyway.

This has given me a fun idea. A thread of 20 sets of different trees.... Was it collected, or was it grown? 10 being collected, and 10 being grown, and all great material obviously, but to see whether you can tell for yourself which was which.


I wouldn't worry about 'taking all the native trees' from Australias outback, that is for sure.
In Australia there would probably be an approximation based on the land mass of forest areas of about 2 trillion trees in our country. Even if every bonsai enthusiast in the country went out every weekend and collected numerous wild material, the amount that would regenerate naturally would outweigh the removal of probably about 10 million a day, .... give or take.

[Davehsydney]

I think the moralities of collecting an old tree are a different topic which I'm happy to explore further with you. I believe you were insinuating that field grown stock (grown and developed by man) was capable of having as much character and special qualities as old yamadori.. I'm not saying it's not possible, I've just never seen it but more than happy to be shown otherwise.

As an aside, you'll find that every high-end bonsai exhibition in the world will contain trees many hundreds of years old...especially when it comes to coniferous species. I also think there's a difference between capturing a free roaming rhino and putting it into a zoo. These high elevation trees grow in extremely harsh conditions, quite often in tiny pockets of soil where they are tortured year after year. If collected and cultivated correctly they flourish and can survive indefinitely.

I think the world has far bigger environmental issues than us crazy bonsai artists collecting a few small stunted trees that are cares for and loved

Pollution, fracking, war, depletion of natural resources etc etc etc......

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[Davehsydney]

Hey Treeman. If you've got examples of any field grown stock that's as impressive and characterful as say a 800 year old rocky mountain juniper I would love to see them then send me the nursery details so i can get hold of some for myself

Sounds a bit selfish taking an 800 year old tree out of its habitat. Almost like taking the last wild white rhino and putting it in a zoo

I think there is definitely a limit to what we should collect as Yamadori, especially as we're trying to express nature in what we create. How are we gonna represent nature if we keep on removing it...

Sorry..corrected a few typos...

I think the moralities of collecting an old tree are a different topic which I'm happy to explore further with you. I believe the insinuation was that field grown stock (grown and developed by man) was capable of having as much character and special qualities as old yamadori.. I'm not saying it's not possible, I've just never seen it but more than happy to be shown otherwise.

As an aside, you'll find that every high-end bonsai exhibition in the world will contain trees many hundreds of years old...especially when it comes to coniferous species. I also think there's a difference between capturing a free roaming rhino and putting it into a zoo. These high elevation trees grow in extremely harsh conditions, quite often in tiny pockets of soil where they are tortured year after year. If collected and cultivated correctly, they flourish and can survive indefinitely.

I think the world has far bigger environmental issues than us crazy bonsai artists collecting a few small stunted trees that are cared for and loved

Pollution, fracking, war, depletion of natural resources etc etc etc......

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

[Reece]

I wouldn't worry about 'taking all the native trees' from Australias outback, that is for sure.
In Australia there would probably be an approximation based on the land mass of forest areas of about 2 trillion trees in our country. Even if every bonsai enthusiast in the country went out every weekend and collected numerous wild material, the amount that would regenerate naturally would outweigh the removal of probably about 10 million a day, .... give or take.

Agreed. It would be like worring about peeing in the ocean because you might poison it.....

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[JaseH]

Here's some impressive field grown stock, easily mistaken for yamadori:

http://bonsaijournal.com/taiwan-juniper.php

You should read the history of collecting shimpaku for bonsai in Japan and how now they're basically extinct in the wild. I have no issues with collecting common species in conditions where they grow easily. But a lot of the time the characteristics we treasure most for bonsai occur in areas where the trees struggle and the environment is fragile. It's these areas which need protecting.

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[treeman]

Hey Treeman. If you've got examples of any field grown stock that's as impressive and characterful as say a 800 year old rocky mountain juniper I would love to see them then send me the nursery details so i can get hold of some for myself

What do you want me to compare an 800 year old juniper with Dave? They grow so slowly that to get a comparable juniper in cultivation would take a couple of centuries. In other words longer than one man's life span. To achieve that would require a plan being handed on for 8 generations. Pretty ridiculous. So forget junipers.

However, it is certainly not beyond possibility to develop fast growing material from the start which - for the purposes of bonsai appreciation - is not only equal to but better than natural material. If all goes to plan, I intend to prove this myself with some native material which I'm working on. It simply takes a modicum of knowledge and planning. Sure it's a long term project, (but no more than a decade for some material) then again so is anything worthwhile. It also bears repeating that size has nothing to do with quality. A fact that is often missed.

[treeman]

Here's some impressive field grown stock, easily mistaken for yamadori:

http://bonsaijournal.com/taiwan-juniper.php

You should read the history of collecting shimpaku for bonsai in Japan and how now they're basically extinct in the wild. I have no issues with collecting common species in conditions where they grow easily. But a lot of the time the characteristics we treasure most for bonsai occur in areas where the trees struggle and the environment is fragile. It's these areas which need protecting.

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Yes I forgot about that tree Jase!
Not 800 years but pretty impressive work! It can be done!

[macca66]

So,
Yes Grainer, after quite a few diversions.
Our bonsai nurserymen/ woman put a lot of time and effort into their stock and should be rewarded fittingly.
But, as with most things, Yes, bonsai prices have sky rocketed over the last decade. About 10 years ago I bought two large yamadori Azalea from a nursery in the Dandenongs for $150 each. I guarantee I've seen their 'sisters' priced from $1200-$2000, yes they are better than mine.
Luckily for me I gathered a reasonable collection early on , before the cost of kids came into play.

Yes Bonsai are more expensive.

[kcpoole]

I wouldn't worry about 'taking all the native trees' from Australias outback, that is for sure.
In Australia there would probably be an approximation based on the land mass of forest areas of about 2 trillion trees in our country. Even if every bonsai enthusiast in the country went out every weekend and collected numerous wild material, the amount that would regenerate naturally would outweigh the removal of probably about 10 million a day, .... give or take.

Agreed. It would be like worring about peeing in the ocean because you might poison it.....

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But the problem would be that the easily accessible locations will be over run and the virgin bush in the middle of nowhere gets left alone.
Sorta like fishing.

The other thing is that in most of our bush, the trees will be boring as bats(*^t because we do not have adverse conditions to create interest ( snow, freezing cold, etc). Floods just rip it out rather than make interesting bends usually.

It is a difficult area and largely I agree that native bush should stay protected, but areas for housing development and such we endeavour save as much as we can before the dozers go in.
I have done that a few times and posted before

[Reece]

I wouldn't worry about 'taking all the native trees' from Australias outback, that is for sure.
In Australia there would probably be an approximation based on the land mass of forest areas of about 2 trillion trees in our country. Even if every bonsai enthusiast in the country went out every weekend and collected numerous wild material, the amount that would regenerate naturally would outweigh the removal of probably about 10 million a day, .... give or take.

Agreed. It would be like worring about peeing in the ocean because you might poison it.....

Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

But the problem would be that the easily accessible locations will be over run and the virgin bush in the middle of nowhere gets left alone.
Sorta like fishing.

The other thing is that in most of our bush, the trees will be boring as bats(*^t because we do not have adverse conditions to create interest ( snow, freezing cold, etc). Floods just rip it out rather than make interesting bends usually.

It is a difficult area and largely I agree that native bush should stay protected, but areas for housing development and such we endeavour save as much as we can before the dozers go in.
I have done that a few times and posted before

Yeah I see what you mean....

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[Reece]

Here's some impressive field grown stock, easily mistaken for yamadori:

http://bonsaijournal.com/taiwan-juniper.php

You should read the history of collecting shimpaku for bonsai in Japan and how now they're basically extinct in the wild. I have no issues with collecting common species in conditions where they grow easily. But a lot of the time the characteristics we treasure most for bonsai occur in areas where the trees struggle and the environment is fragile. It's these areas which need protecting.

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Anyway happen to have some detailed instructions on how to grow these junipers like this? I'll even take Taiwanese haha....

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