Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

[bodhidharma]

While watering my trees today i had time to think about what i, as a nurseryman, had to add to the thread that Bretts started, i think, on my behalf. I do what i do for the lifestyle and if i had to depend on my Bonsai business to survive i would have been dead last year. I do not know how other Bonsai Nursery's survive. I have my Nursery on my property, no rent, i supply my own water, no water bill. The main overheads are free. As i watched Boon's video yesterday and was horrified that he cut his wire off and threw it out, i thought that somebody must be making money out of Bonsai. I have to re-straighten mine and reuse it or i would be broke in no time. I made 75.00 dollars net today. I also have two cottages for the holiday crowd and i run Tai Chi classes to sustain my income and my Wife has a real job, so we get on. Please do not mistake what i say, i love my life but if i only relied on my Bonsai sales i would not make it. So, down to it. The first important point to make is that Bonsai is still in it's infancy in Australia so we do not have a Bonsai culture whatsoever. We might think we do but until you go to a country and see a thriving Bonsai culture we do not know what a Bonsai culture is. That, of course leads us to the problem of what we would pay for a tree. If a country has a Bonsai culture I.E see's the tree as a work of art and an investment and is prepared to pay good money for the tree, that improves the quality of trees overall. An industry is in motion that strives to have the best Bonsai and improve it at all levels. At best, Bonsai in Australia is a hobby that competes with cross stitch. In a country with Bonsai culture, professional Masters strive to have their trees exhibited in shows that pay good money for winners, let alone the photographing rights of their tree. We have our club shows. So, what has to change with us in Australia to be able to compete on the world stage,Instead of standing around open mouthed, gawking at photos of Bonsai we can only dream about. I can only contribute knowledge from my lowly seventeen years of training. We undervalue the Art of Bonsai to the point that we go to a Nursery and buy a sick tree for ten bucks and then think we have bought a bargain, and that is for the majority of us. Somebody has to make the first move to raise the standard and understanding of Bonsai in this country but we all think somebody else will do it. Of course there are people doing it now but they are in the minority. So how does this apply to what a Bonsai is worth? If nobody is willing to pay for the real worth of a Bonsai and begin the job of taking the tree to the next level of its refinement, and strive to learn more so we actually have the ability to look after such a refined tree, the Art of Bonsai in Australia will surely die. I do not have the answers but i do know money, and raising the level of our understanding will bring its rewards. I personally am only now coming to grips with how to take a tree to a higher level of refinement and i work on them every day . Who will pay for this work and who will have the ability to keep refining this tree when i am no longer able to? As long as our mindsets persist in keeping Bonsai as something we do when we have nothing else to do, the level of Bonsai in Australia to the world stage will be very,very slow and the value of a trees true worth will never be realised. To finish up, i believe the heading of this thread actually becomes nonsensical until the other qualities talked about become latent in the Australian community ,as we do not have the developed ability to realise what a tree is actually worth.

[shibui]

I'm interested to see that several growers supply their own water so they allow no cost for it. I considered this a few weeks ago as I also do not pay water rates because I supply my own water however I do have significant costs - Infrastructure costs (paid up front) - Storage tank, piping, pump, etc (I have not even considered depreciation or replacement costs as these wear out); Ongoing costs - electricity to run the pump adds quite significantly to my energy bills each quarter.
My costs of pots and mix appear to be higher than stated so far too. 110mm squat pots for starters and seedlings cost me 8.4c each (+ nursery pot levy?) and my bulk potting mix works out at about 6c per pot without adding fertiliser costs.
Producing quality bonsai starters is much slower than producing standard potted plants. Instead of just stuffing the root system into a pot and filling it with mix I trim the roots, part fill the pot then arrange the roots and fill the pot with mix in order to start a good nebari for future growers. This reduces production by about 1/3 of standard nursery practice. At each repotting, instead of slip potting into a larger pot the plants are bare rooted, root trimmed and potted up with attention to radial root spread. Again, this takes more time and potting mix than standard nursery practice.
Because the advanced stock we sell takes years to produce the costs are higher for time, space, water, etc but so are the losses. a few starters that die do not add much to the cost of production but the few 10-15 year old trees that die each year do add more significantly to the cost of production.
In bonsai we value certain things in our plants - good nebari, taper, etc. Not all the trees I grow will meet the expectations so a certain percentage will have to be devalued or culled (I see myself a little like a stud breeder where only about 50% of the stock bred will meet requirements, the rest will be disposed of through other markets). The trees that do make it through the growing, selecting and culling process have to cover the costs of those which didn't so costs start to rise exponentially for quality aged starter stock.
As others have said, I enjoy growing bonsai. I enjoy seeing my babies taken home by someone enthusiastic and determined to produce a future classic. I will still have to earn income through outside employment in order to have enough to enjoy life and put something away for retirement but I am always happy to try to arrange a time for visitors to talk bonsai and have a look through the nursery.
Cheers
Neil

[bodhidharma]

Hmmm.. having read Shibui's reply and re-reading mine i think i was being to futuristic with my reply But, of course Neil is correct. I didnt even consider upkeep on my watering system which is expensive. If i was to come up with a figure to just start the business that would be 30,000 plus. As neil said, i try and do nebari work on repot time also. If a larger tree needs restyling, which could easily take a day i dont take that into account. Ahh.. the things we do for love

[Ray]

I don't think you were being too futuristic Bodhidharma, the market is driven to an extent by supply and demand, if the demand is for starter trees and not developed trees, that's what the nursery floor space will get filled by. My guess is it would be lessons that are keeping most specialist bonsai nurseries in business, not the sale of trees. But that's a whole area separate to pricing of trees.

[Bretts]

Love the well thought out opinions
A couple of years ago when Peter Adams visited I found his most interesting words to be stop making excuses for your Bonsai. This was in direct relation to the culture of Bonsai in Australia.
We look at the international exhibits and as Bodhi states with open mouths. We have any number of reasons why we are not able to create to that standard but that is just not the Aussie way. In so many other fields we overcome adversity to produce outstanding results.
A minor few have shown us that excellence in bonsai is achievable in Australia and the rest is just excuses.
So I find alot of what Bodhi states very relevant.

Shibui,
I did my equation on pine seedling cuttings. The idea here is that the roots are soughted out at the very beginning and for the next 5 years or so there is nothing more than slip potting. I consider most bonsai nurseries would be using cuttings in propagation for most other material and although I don't have extensive practical experience I would think cuttings done in good conditions would also need limited if any root work in the initial years as they have no tap root.
As I go through bonsai nursery stock finding not all have excellent root spread even though being from cuttings maybe there is more to this than I understand?
Maybe you can elaborate on this?

I imagine time would be saved just stuffing the roots into a pot than taking care to radiate them but is this really a major consideration when taking into account two years of care. Maybe the understanding that a bonsai enthusiast has of roots will pay of in better overall growth. That is the idea with pine seedling cuttings.
Also I am lost where any soil and pot costs where given anything less than you state. I added $3 on top of my guess of costs so I don't see how 15c per pot/soil will upset the numbers I used.
Our local nurseryman does actually sell cuttings say finger thick for $10. This is after an increase from $8 in recent years.I guess they would be 2 year old cuttings but really this is just a guess.
I know that is pretty cheap.
Sorry if it sounds like I question your experience I am just a little lost with your reply?

[Mojo Moyogi]

First up I want to say that my opinions here have nothing to do with the tree that Leigh is selling.

In believe the age in years (and size, come to think of it ) of a tree is almost completely irrelevant when it comes to determining the price I am willing to pay to own it. I would be a silly bugger if I was bought a tree that had been in bonsai cultivation for a genuine 25 years for let's say $2000 if I realistically believed that I could create just as good or better in 10-15 years. But I am fortunate in that I have plenty of space available in which to grow my trees and live in a climate that temperate and cool climate plants simply thrive in. I am experienced enough in bonsai now to have figured out pretty much how to get from A to B and end up with a tree that I find satisfying to look at and worthy of ongoing refinement. Anything that isnt going to make the cut is set aside at various points along the way.

I have more to say on this topic, I'll do so when I have more time to read what others have recently contributed.

Cheers,
Mojo

[chrisatrocky]

now this is something which every one should have an opinion about, after all we have all bought or created bonsai. This is my opinion, firstly a bonsai is valued on its appeal, then its development, thirdly its age, and last of all the artist. This is how I value all bonsai and bonsai stock plants I am going to buy or sell.

Some of you may not agree that the artist is the least important factor in valueing a bonsai, here is the reason. A bonsai is not like a painting, unchanging over months, years and decades. A bonsai is a growing, living thing, which needs to be pruned, shaped and re-potted and some times re designed. How long does it take for the original artist bonsai creation, to disapear beneath the now artist vision, and what is the now artist name worth.

Chris.

[Ash]

Hi all -

An item is worth what two people agree it is worth- the buyer and the seller. An advertised price is a 'hypothetical' price - it is not tested until the item is sold. It is the sold price, the tested price, that matters for professionals and hobbyists. For a professional to propose an accurate advertised price (i.e. predict a sold price) there are two numbers they need to know: (a) the cost of producing the item and (b) the tested (sold) prices for a similar item on the current market (not the advertised prices of the current market).

At the moment (a) is within the grasp of any good arithmatician who keeps records in their nursery but (b)....? Where would one get the numbers for (b)? Sold prices are often a secret.

I am located far from the bonsai market and have not had the chance to partake in it. I would very much like to hear about specific experiences people have had...sales...auctions...collections...reselling...in an effort to lift the veil that secrets price.

regards

Ash

[Leigh Taafe]

Interesting points from everyone. I have not heard any mention of demand and supply. I think that demand vs supply is a significant factor in the pricing of all bonsai related material. It is good to note, also that advertised price is not always a sale price.

[bodhidharma]

LETS DO A CASE STUDY...What Leigh has said is very true, supply and demand of Bonsai's is paramount. Nurseries in the city have a higher demand of stock and turnover but, i imagine, would have higher overheads? Country nursery's have less turnover but lower overheads? We probably will never know the answer to that question unless someone does a case study. How does one price a Bonsai? I hope people will indulge me as i try to do a case study and get some feedback from people more learned than myself. The case study will be this Chinese Juniper which is not my work but came as a job lot when i purchased the Bonsai Barn 3-4 years ago. I guess the tree to be around 15-18 years old. Its design was set when i took possession of it. I have repotted it once in that time into a nicer, stamped pot and wired it once for some branch placement, pruned it 2-3 times and, of course, maintained its health for those 3-4 years. It is for sale at 500 dollars. The stamped pot is 60 dollars so that leaves the tree at 440 dollars. The tree, if it is not moved on soon, will need secondary and tertiary branch wiring, better major branch placement, some ground growing to thicken the trunk and then repotted and foliage refinement. That would probably add another 150- 200 to the price. Do you think my assessments are accurate and do we all think that is a fair asking price for the tree.

[NBPCA]

Water is certainly not free. There is a lot of cost involved.

When I had a nursery we put in a dam of 13 million litres capacity and we still ran dry during the worst of the drought.

Some of our bonsai are very good by world standards.

When Harry thomlinson was here in 1995 he saw a Radiata pine at my place(On its way back to Melbournes Collectors Corner) and I asked him how much he could get for that pine or equiv back in England. He did the quick calcualtion and came up with about Aus$ 35,000.

Demand would dictate a lower price here unfortunately.

Grant

[bodhidharma]

Water is certainly not free. There is a lot of cost involved.

When I had a nursery we put in a dam of 13 million litres capacity and we still ran dry during the worst of the drought.

Some of our bonsai are very good by world standards.

When Harry thomlinson was here in 1995 he saw a Radiata pine at my place(On its way back to Melbournes Collectors Corner) and I asked him how much he could get for that pine or equiv back in England. He did the quick calcualtion and came up with about Aus$ 35,000.

Demand would dictate a lower price here unfortunately.

Grant

Yes Grant, i had two dams renovated so, hopefully, i will never have a water issue. (damn, never calculated that in either) If that is the tree on display at C.C i have had the privilege of seeing it and it is marvelous I have admired it on three occasions now.

[rowan]

Ok I will do a case study also.



This 15 year old yamadori radiata pine was growing in a favourite area of mine 120km from my home where they get mown down a couple of times a year so develop lots of branching. I travel 240km and bring home 20 trees of which 5 might die. with travel costs this tree costs me $4. Add a plastic growing pot, fertiliser and potting mix, another $3. Keep for 2 years with regular pinching, watering and two prunes. No styling - that is for the buyer. Add a couple of dollars for the ebay fees.

This tree costs me close to $30 all up during the time I have it and it is for sale for $45. If it doesn't move this year it will go in the ground to thicken the trunk, a couple of hard prunes over the next couple of years and then come in for a basic style when it will be up for $95 unless it turns out to be really good when I might put more on it. I don't spend a lot of time on the tree with styling or refinement so I don't add time and experience costs which is a big part of a styled bonsai and what makes Bodhiharmas tree the price it is and makes it worth it.

I don't make a lot from my trees and have to have some income from other sources but it is the price people are willing to pay for a tree to go on with.

Rowan

[bodhidharma]

This 15 year old yamadori radiata pine was growing in a favourite area of mine 120km from my home where they get mown down a couple of times a year so develop lots of branching. I travel 240km and bring home 20 trees of which 5 might die. with travel costs this tree costs me $4. Add a plastic growing pot, fertiliser and potting mix, another $3. Keep for 2 years with regular pinching, watering and two prunes. No styling - that is for the buyer. Add a couple of dollars for the ebay fees.

This tree costs me close to $30 all up during the time I have it and it is for sale for $45. If it doesn't move this year it will go in the ground to thicken the trunk, a couple of hard prunes over the next couple of years and then come in for a basic style when it will be up for $95 unless it turns out to be really good when I might put more on it. I don't spend a lot of time on the tree with styling or refinement so I don't add time and experience costs which is a big part of a styled bonsai and what makes Bodhiharmas tree the price it is and makes it worth it.

I don't make a lot from my trees and have to have some income from other sources but it is the price people are willing to pay for a tree to go on with.

Rowan

[/quote]
The biggest factor you have left out of this is your labour Rowan. How long did it take you to drive there and back. How long did it take to dig them up. How long did it take to pot them up. How many hours have you put in looking after them? Who pays for the soil and fertiliser, and how much is your water bill. My man, i would say if you calculated that in you would actually be working at a rather large loss.

[rowan]

I agree but if I factored all that in I wouldn't be able to sell any trees. I would love to charge more for them but I have to sell them for what people will pay. Example - my tree that I put up on Ebay usually go within a few hours but at the moment I have three olives up which I put only a few extra dollars on and they are still there three days into the auction. There are plenty of watchers but they are waiting till the end so they can get them cheaper at my 'buy it now' price.

It is supply and demand. I have to sell at the price that the market will bear. I live in the middle of no-where so I can't get people to come and see them. They might pay more if they could see and touch perhaps.

Rowan
Edited for spelling