Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

[bodhidharma]

Mickaus, Ash, Blackie Bloody good input. Between the lot of you, you have covered every question facing a Bonsai Nursery (myself anyway) and i have no answers, only questions. Will the current trend lead towards a decline in quality Bonsai? No more people professionally pursuing the elusive top quality Bonsai. Maybe it is not in the Aussie gene pool to pursue such a gentle Art and take it to its highest level.

[mickaus]

Will the current trend lead towards a decline in quality Bonsai? No more people professionally pursuing the elusive top quality Bonsai.

That would be sad indeed,I don't think we are quite at that point yet though. Things like the NBPCA provide me with a great deal of hope for the future of bonsai in Australia.

That being said, I think I read somewhere recently that bonsai was struggling in many places around the world at the moment.

[cre8ivbonsai]

As a "hobbyist" all I can say about anyone who can sustain a Bonsai Nursery as an independent business is RESPECT!
Respect for the skills that you have refined and that are embedded through time and energy into your primary products.
Respect for the ability run a business in such a niche market, it takes a lot stress to set up a business and keep it going!
Respect for often showing a free admission exhibit area of nfs bonsai to provide us all with enjoyment and inspiration.
Respect for price they choose to sell their product at. without question. they've put a price there that they're happy to sell at that they've arrived at from experience. If I can't afford that price then I admire it for the years of hard work, and move on to something I can afford. I won't ask the owner to knock 50 bucks off just cause i can't afford it. If you think something's overpriced - don't buy it, find a bargain on another bench.

I would like (roughly) to quote from a sign that I have noticed upon entry to the sale yard of one of my more frequent Bonsai Nurseries... "All stock has prices marked. Please don't ask for a discount as you will only be disappointed" ... that's the owner's request and I respect that. He doesn't need to be hassled every time someone asks for a couple bucks off, get rejected then doesn't even buy the thing - it's embaressing for everyone.

Equally there is another Bonsai Nursery I also frequent, they sell more starter stock, yet don't have prices marked on anything. If there's something you want, point it out and he'll offer you a very reasonable price, the more you buy - the better the price gets.

Therefore when I get to go out and visit bonsai nurseries, it's a "day out". I will usually have an amount that I'm comfortable spending (and usually exceed), an idea of what I want. BUT if don't find what I'm looking for I will usually find something, even something small, I don't look at this as charity... I see it a supporting an industry that supports us ... they give a lot of free advise esp to the uninitiated, and a lot support our local Bonsai Clubs - Respect.

This price+respect "policy" I also bring to any club sale or exhibition sale tables, the price marked is what the seller wants for it. These are usually such a good bargain anyway + I feel like I'm helping out the club as well.

The only time I might consider bartering with someone is: in a market stall situation where this custom is common practice, usually the price is an expectation of this; or at garage sale. (both of which I don't regularly attend)

I shan't comment on selling off excess from your own collection as I have little experience in doing this, however, personally as a buyer I usually prefer to see what I'm paying for in the flesh before I fork over the dosh. I know at some point I'll have to offload some of my collection, somehow, although I think I'll try selling at a club sale day or the like, therefore benefiting the club. Alt I could also try selling on AusBonsai, however my preference for a local pickup buyer would be quite restrictive to making a sale Either way it'll have o.n.o after the price as I won't be looking to profit (not exactly prize wining ) just pass it on for someone else to enjoy or destroy . Having said all that I don't begrudge people trading online, it great too see what prices people put on what quality and just general oooh aaah inspiration (thanks Leigh )

For me it's about the experience...

Bonsai nurseries that have lots of stock are great, you can spend part the day wondering around looking at all the stock you can't afford, another part debating and choosing the stock you can, and the rest chatting with the owner (if they're not too busy working )

... and one day (hopefully soon ) I'll make a day trip up to see your offerings Bodhi

I've never really inquired, but does any Nursery owner here do "trade ins" to encourage extra business?

Just my thoughts from the other side of the fence... Ryan

[Blackie]

..... Maybe it is not in the Aussie gene pool to pursue such a gentle Art and take it to its highest level.

I believe it's possible, but it doesn't have to be done at a professional level ie nurseries. Perhaps the 'hobbyist' is actually in a better position to take it to that highest level.

I'm a tad convinced that some of the best bonsai is never seen because it's being done by private practitioners working free of the influence of clubs and forums.

Now that's not putting down the value of clubs and forums but taking it back to the days of the Koreshoffs et al and how they did everything from the ground up (no pun intended) by themselves with just the occasional contact with others.

As one who worked in senior management, I more highly valued the employee who looked for solutions themselves rather than running to me every ten minutes.

What I'm saying is that perhaps all the advice, the starters, the eBay sellers and so on now available is actually devaluing bonsai.

Hmmm ... this is hard to explain but I guess it's like the novelist or the great painter - they beaver away in their garrets and studios until their work is finished (a point which, of course, may never be reached).

[Bretts]

I think the mixing of cottage industry and the more mainstream nursery is pretty inevitable here. Hard to direct open discussion. I am not sure we need rely on cottage industry for the best stock but it is usually the smaller operator complaining the larger ones undercut them. It's curious how bonsai can be the opposite.
My little en devour a few years ago was to buy stock trees from a bonsai nursery give them a one off style and potted into a bonsai pot so they could be sold of. The quick calculation I did was like any re-sale retail shop was 100% mark up.
Trees cost $45 each pot $25 With other consumables I put cost at $75 and sale price at $150. I sold about half the stock on consignment at the local nursery. They where happy to have the trees on show and did not take much of my profit. Learnt alot, made my money back and had trees left over.
The final product was not perfect but I thought they where much better than was selling at Bunnings and more than half the price for the size. Yet sales where slow. I know see there are many things I could do to improve the sales but it has become evident that the most money in bonsai at the moment is with the punters.

I have tried to continue this discussion without names but We are so lucky to have A nurseryman like Ray Nesci. Massive range of stock and varieties at reasonable prices. I believe he is able to accomplish this with lower overheads than many of his competitors and a true love of trees and plants and the bonsai community.
You can only smile when he tells you there is a sale on today. Yes we have a sale every day of the year he enjoys telling customers
I don't think we need fear the end of Ray nesci Nursery with the retirement of Ray. It seems Clinton is keen to continue. I understand there is indeed changes to improve the quality of the stock avialable so more advanced stock is in the works.

One interesting endeavor is to enter the bonsai nursery with no price in mind. I often do this. Looking for a tree I like and trying to ignore the price tag. It is very liberating only looking and thinking about the tree and not your wallet. I have found it very interesting at Ray's that the better quality trees are accompanied by a larger price tag even though they are the same species and size as cheaper ones. Not by a small amount either. Puts a smile on ya ace when you think bugger ya Ray you saw that too Of course this is not a surprise but something maybe not mentioned yet. I would almost hope that bonsai nurseries price not only on cost involved but also adjust for the quality of individual stock. I feel very comfortable paying the prices Ray asks as I feel I am not paying for large overheads in high class area rent or the mortgage of a new nursery. Yet I have never bought one of Ray's Finished potted trees either. The price jump here in nurseries is striking and one I have had trouble coming to terms with. Yet my few pre-owned bonsai have been some of my most enjoyable.
Of course price variation in similar stock would be mainly for the more advanced stock which brings another factor I read happens in at least Japanese nurseries. As the years go by the worse stock is sold of first while the better stock is grown on to claim a higher price. I wonder how many Bonsai nurseries do this?

Bodi the only answer I can suggest is minimise the overheads as much as possible where possible. Need to think outside the square. The first thing a fish shop may do in a tight situation is put less fish in the display but that is definitely not the answer. Buying stock of people like Rowan was a great idea. Maybe not the answer but that is the thought of thinking that will get somewhere. Find techniques that makes your stock special or cheaper. Push push push and the answer will come.
I have alot of respect for a nursery that could not compete on Ray's level of low overheads and now has made a big change in the way thier business is heading.

Thanks Shibui, what you say about the pines is interesting. I have a mix of cuttings and normal seedlings so it will be interesting to compare as the years go by. Will have to review some more of what you say

[Leigh Taafe]

Oh - one other thing I forgot to mention.....the "bargain price" or "too expensive price" can also be directly related to a buyer's experience.

[craigw60]

I have been following this thread with interest and decided to weigh in
For me the only thing which should determine the cost of bonsai is the quality of workmanship, age means nothing unless those years have been fruitfully spent.
There are plenty of trees out there which have been field grown for 5-10 years with out any work done in the interim the roots are a disaster, they have no taper and the large scars are at the top of the tree these plants are to me worthless time and energy wasted.
When growing a batch of trees the quality of the stock will inevitably vary, the best having great taper a nice even root spread and well placed scars, even if the time and money spent on the trees is the same the price should vary to reflect the quality of the stock.
I would never buy a tree site unseen I would want to take it out of the pot and check the roots, see the detail in the ramification and the placement of the scars and more. The original grower would be of great interest to me both to preserve the history of the tree but also because that would tell me a lot about the work which has been done to the tree particularly below ground.
With regards to pre-bonsai I want to know what distinguishes them from general nursery stock. The term pre-bonsai should indicate that some pretty skilled work has been done preparing the bones of the tree so it can be fleshed out to become a good bonsai.
Craigw

[Greth]

I prefer the term cottage industry now coming up in this thread to the term hobby, especially where it applies to my herbs!
The biggest market there would be for Bonsai would be wholesale plants for Bunnings. Noone else would buy in the kinda quantities which are going to make it really viable as a paying career. Maybe retailing pots and soil and tools is an extra which can help small nurseries survive.
One nursery text I have been reading points out that only about 30 percent of people are interested in gardening AT ALL as a hobby. There is a fairly vanishingly low number of those who would be interested in Bonsai. You are competing for the leisure dollar, along with movies, maccas, concerts, footy, fishing, the list goes on. My herbs are prob a better figure, as most veg gardeners can be convinced to grow herbs, as well as the decorative aspects, cooks, herbal medicine enthusiasts, even the magically inclined crystal and dolphin people. I can also talk parents into the value of lovely smelling plants as a healthy environment for their beloved offspring, even if they would not otherwise touch gardening with a bargepole. The new kindy nearby will be heavily supplied with pretty smelling and even edible plants!

With my herbs, I have worked at commercial herb nurseries, studied the industry at uni, and basically the only people who can do it as a stand alone source of income are those producing wholesale plants for the big chains, esp you know who, who buy a truckload of basil every week in spring for a few months, not counting the other herbs they sell. In one case I knew the sellers when they were cottage industry, when they started getting Bunnings contracts, when they worked and made a fair bit of money from it, and when they got shat off from weeks and weeks of endless trucking of basil seedlings. They offered me the franchise and I declined !!!! Over twenty or so years they did have a good living, but it was hard work and they had little time to enjpy the herbs they initially loved so much. I would rather keep buying my clothes from opshops and having a life than be enslaved to a factory line of dealing with cantankerous basil seedlings, subject to every frosty day that passes!
Not meaning I wouldn't do wholesale, actually I am setting up supplying some hardware stores now, but not on the huge scale.

I expect that bonsai culture is pretty much the same, if you really want to make a living from it, you will be looking at mass production of seedlings, whack em in the cheapest pots you can get hold of, and bulk sell them to Bunnings. Someone does it, they prob sleep on a feather bed at night, but whether they actually have any time left to enjoy mature bonsai? Prob not much.

[Bretts]

Now thats's just about enough Greth I will not stand by and have you talk about my favouite herb that way. You should be ashamed of yourself

[Greth]

It is a favourite herb, and justly so! My friends just got a bit tired of it after potting tens of thousands of them every year.In their favour it was about 10 years of that hard slog before they tired of it.
It was their choice, they worked hard, made enough to pay off mortgage on lovely land, raised their kids and set up for retirement, or at least quieter years, all from bulk basil and basic herbs. Their daughter married one of the staff and now selling wholesale herbs, hehe.
To make a bonsai living you will be potting loads of twigs, twisting a bit of wire around some of the most promising of them, shoving the lot in cheap pots and trucking them out to be killed by amateurs or people who got an unwanted Christmas present.
Hardly any of them will go to a good home. For pricing here, you need to think how much people will pay for an unsolicited gift with a lifespan of less than a year. $30-60 maybe. They last longer than a bunch of roses, not as long as a concrete flamingo.
Good business, not quite so good Bonsai.
Producing $500 or $5000 bonsai is a different exercise, your customers will be discerning Bonsai people, there won't be many of them, your reputation will be a big part of the sale price. Wonder how many $500 bonsai sales there are in Australia yearly? Not nearly enough to keep a few dozen growers in $50,000 income. Sorry guys, at the top end you are looking at artwork, and it is unlikely to pay well except for a few masters who have a lot of trees in the great phase.

,

[Greth]

I did buy one $15 starter, I was feeling reasonably flush, and I couldn't find a cheaper JBP, It was indeed a stick in a pot, now slightly twisted and growing on for at least 3-4 years before it becomes something reasonable. I dont normally mention it in bonsai circles, and won't until it gets good. Not sure it was a wise purchase, it was a folly for me. So a bonsai enthusiast is maybe 50 percent likely to buy one of these a year. The rest of the time they can find better collected plants, or something from a nursery which can be modified.

The $100 range is quite interesting, here Bunnings hasn't well styled plants, but this would be the 3-5 year olds, well styled and set up properly. Here is possible profit for the cottage grower,if they advertise themselves and offer advice along with the plant. The buyers in this range do see it as a long term project, but you must provide support to help them keep it alive We are beyond the silly gifts range here. You have to hope that your buyer realises that the Bunning seedlings in the same price range are actually not real good, and that you have a better plant, and are willing to help them grow it further.

$500 trees. Very unlikely to have enough money to buy one of these, but if it was really well shaped, from a reputable source, and I had $500 to spend on myself, I might consider something in this range. It would be for show, tho, and I don't have many visitors who would appreciate it. Have to be a fairly good lottery win. I understand that a tree in this range has a lot of expertise and artistic skill behind it, but I don't spend $500 easily, and usually only on essentials or building. Well off bonsai enthusiasts might buy one every few years, how many well off bonsai enthusiasts are there?

$5000 trees. I would have to have won lotto before I would spend on these. These kinds of trees are way outta my range, don't think we could even buy one unless we sold the house. Nobody but a millionaire would buy one of these more than once in a lifetime. If it was a beautiful tree, I would be scared about harming it, so I would need a really reassuring saleman to sell it to me, preferably one who would promise to help me look after it.

[Andrew E]

A very interesting thread. I don't think you can compare a normal nursery wholesale or retail with a bonsai nursery. the two are different for many reasons. Upkeep of bonsai, pruning repotting etc takes time, the plants need weeding constantly, feeding etc. A normal nursery relies on quick turnover and any stock left over is either thrown out, potted up or put on the sale pile. Can't afford to do this in a little bonsai nursery and lets face it, they're little compared to most normal nurseries.
We live in a country where bonsai is definitely still in its infancy, both in age but also its appreciation. Travelling to Japan where I saw 4 inch mame bonsai worth 3- 4k and beautiful older trees for 100,000 euro gave me an understanding that the majority of our bonsai fraternity simply can't grasp the idea that a tree can be worth that much money. A 'cottage industry' is certainly an apt expression when describing our industry.
When i ran Bibo i soon realised that the majority of the trees to be sold were the smaller 'market stall' trees worth $20 - $50. This included bonsai and stock trees. Most Aussies prefer to make their own trees anyway and this meant that the sales of larger or more developed trees was always slow. the development of a mature bonsai takes time, a long time and this will be reflected in price.

In the end the price of a bonsai will always be determined by what someone is willing to pay. And unfortunately there are very few out there in the Aussie bonsai world willing to. They are out there but few.

[Greth]

There is a simple population factor too, must be a heck of lot more Japanese bonsai enthusiasts per square kilometre in Japan! Maybe only 1% of people in Australia would ever actually dabble in Bonsai at some point in their lives, most of them will try the DIY option rather than forking out significant money..

After five years of interest and daily activity, my total expenditure on specialised bonsai products (including those I have coerced from others as presents) would be less than $100. My total expenditure at a bonsai nursery, ummm, I think there may have been a small pot a few years ago, prob less than $20. (cringes thinking of all her dear friends who will go broke waiting for her to come and support them...)
Why not is probably a good question. Simple geography, it is too far to travel to the nearest one, I don't make long trips for recreation often. I know there are good online shops, and I applaud them, but for something artistic and moderately expensive I would want to see the plant or pot or even tool up close and personal. If someone held a stall at my shopping mall or something, they would have a far better chance of gaining my business, but I admit it is a risk and a pain to transport plants to market, and the overheads there could be worse than selling from home. Someone does at Littlehampton market, I haven't seen any trees that excite me enough to entice me from my dollar there, they don't do pots and tools, which are more likely sales.

[bodhidharma]

Most of my trade comes from the tourist dollar. People who visit for something else to do and celebrate by buying a Bonsai, usually in the 30-85 dollar range. I have had a few people seek me out after spotting a tree i had on show, either from our local show or from one of my displays that i have in the reception areas of a couple of classy accommodation/restaurant places in Daylesford. I have also had some pleasant visits from A.B people and have made friends with some. All the A.B people, without exception, have been a pleasure to meet and deal with. I have an amazing amount of people through, who are just curious about a Martial Arts, Tai Chi, Chi Kung, Tibetan Buddhist, Bonsai Nursery place that offers accommodation A plan in my head will be a donation box as we support 11 Tibetan Buddhist Nuns who fled Tibet and are living in Northern India in poverty conditions. At least, that way, the time spent talking to tourists (which can be hugely time consuming) will be beneficial. Another plan is to create three separate areas. 1) a beginners sections 30-100 dollars 2) A smaller area of 200-500 dollar trees 3) a larger area for the people who are serious about Bonsai and dont want them in pots or had any styling, just huge potential. My personal trees will be put in a separate area. All the rest, trees that have a thirty year plan Etc, etc will be fire saled and moved on and i will down size the Nursery.

[Leigh Taafe]

Hey Andrew - check your PM's mate !!