Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

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Bretts
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Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by Bretts »

Thought Leighs thread was getting a little to involved for the For sale section so thought I better start a new thread.
When learning a trade one aspect will be quoting a job. It is a very interesting aspect and one that I think corresponds with the nursery industry.
As most of us are not able to complete a horticultural trade it would be great if we could get some insight from the professional nurserymen.
Professionals often have little tricks or formulas that makes amateurs, well look like amateurs :tounge:
I imagine some of the things(overheads) you would have to take into account would be
Cost of growing area: Rent, mortgage, rates
Heavy machinery: Tractor, trucks or vans
Wages or time spent: Employees or self employed
Materials: Trees, seeds, soil, pots,wire
Consumables: water, fertiliser, various pest and fungicides,ware and tare on tools.

The idea would have to be something similar to finding the real cost of all these items over say one year and then work out what you would have to make to cover all these costs from he material produced.The other thing to consider is how much people are wiling to pay for what you produce. Due to the nature of Bonsai this may project over several years and cash flow would also need to be considered.
Now if we look at Japanese Bonsai nurseries as an example nurseries work in different stages.
From seedlings/cuttings to on growing and more refined specimens. These stages will overlap to some degree as well.

I imagine the early years of cultivation in bonsai could be worked out much the same as with standard nurseries, with some difference in how quality of the stock produced was evaluated.
I have found in Australia that the stock we buy from bonsai nurseries is often cheaper for the age of the stock than I can buy from a normal nursery. I figure the main influence here is that we buy direct from the producer. There is no middle man as such when you go to your local nursery who has to purchase from the initial grower.

Once we get to the growing on stage one thing we may have to consider differently is the extra time if any that each piece of material now needs. Time spent watering and other regular task such as fertilising and pest control may not change but it must be considered if more time is spent in styling consideration. One thing is certain it will need extra space so this will increase the cost of growing area over heads. Also another thing to be considered at this stage is payment for risk involved. The longer the investment goes for in the material the more chance your investment will collapse or at least a percentage of it. The proprietor must be compensated for risk. But at the same time it must be considered if people are wiling to compensate you for that risk (demand)

Onto the final stage and one thing here that also relates to the other stages but most evident here. Is the proprietor acting solely as a middle man or are they adding value to the material.
Most stages before this could be called craft. But now we delve into the more artistic side. I can't help but consider the difference between a domestic house painter and an artist that produces paintings we hang on our wall. Should one be paid more than the other for the time spent. I think not but there are some hidden considerations to take into account. A domestic house painter will have different over heads to an artist. The artists has time spent learning their trade to consider. Maybe there is years of study plus endless hours of research. The number of years of unpaid work to excel in their craft must be added to their overheads on any particular job. Also again we must consider payment for risk taken. An artist that spends many years learning their craft with the risk of failure must be compensated for that. Hence the better you become as an artist the more you are able to reap in reward.
In staying with this tangent we could consider a builder that is very good at renovating a house. The appeal of the final result will give the best returns.
Yet all the way through these stages one thing remains constant. The larger the operation the less each piece of material will cost which is in direct relation to overhead costs per piece of material.
Some believe that larger productions take away the artistic credit of bonsai but I disagree. I think that is heading in the direction of egotistical. They believe Bonsai is great because it is hard or difficult. They think that not everyone can do it. But I think bonsai is great no matter how easy it is.
In relation to this is Bonsai Nurseries such as Brussel's
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmyRdflQu-g
People say this undermines bonsai but I think operations such as this, as they say, would be able to supply all level of bonsai quality at the lowest price simply because their overheads would be the lowest per specimen as they grow and buy then sell.


Other things that could be considered is has the material given any returns over the period of holding. IE in less professional gardens the enjoyment of having the material would have to be considered. Such that the re is not just a matter of producing income but is actually a joy to care for and improves ones enjoyment of life.
And in a more professional nursery the material may not be the bread winner but something to draw customers in. Similar in a way to a car dealer driving the latest model. (except that the material actually goes down in price the older it is :shifty: )


Little more to add but time for a break :ugeek: Not sure if I have left any room for others opinions but would love the opinion of the experienced nurseryman as well asanyone else as like I started with. Learning how to quote is a very important factor of a trade and we can only hope some here will go on to produce stock for the rest of us :fc:
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by Greth »

Not sure if anything I say will be relevant, but being a loud mouth I will say it anyway.
For my herbs, most of them the going price is $4. The wholesale price is about $2:10. Forgetting the cost of my time for the moment, I spend about 20-30 cents on the pot, the mix, the fertilizer and the label, the plant costs me zilch as it is a cutting from an existing plant. I do spend a bit on stock plants but that pales into nothing by the time I have sold a few cuttings from them. Water actually does fall from the sky, we have no water rates so don't need to consider that. Our normal farm insurance incidentally covers sales at markets, so zero extra insurance cost. A market stall costs $10 a day where I go, some places it is much much worse.
So my materials cost is 30 cents, at the most, my competitors are selling at $4, I offer better bigger plants at $4, but often discount to $3. The discounting process itself endears me to my customers. So even while I am offering a great deal to my customers, my profit margin is pretty good.
Back to the time factor, I spend maybe 15-20 hours working on sale plants a week, I make maybe $80 profit, so I am probably actually getting $4 an hour or less. Sounds pretty miserable, but if I was watching Oprah and doing my nails daily in home mum style I wouldn't even get that. Not much of it feels like work either, I love every minute of my gardening time, I am not stressed, I can mind my toddler and teach her to pot up plants too (she is getting damn good for a 3 year old) In between and around and within, some of my plants grow edible veg and supplement our food supply in a lovely way, can also use them for bath scents, for simple medicine, for decoration, and lie back and smell the roses. I swap stuff with like minded friends, no gain from that on an account book, but plenty of value in real life.
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by Pup »

Its very easy Brett just pluck a number out of the air. Thats what I do ;) ;)
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by Bretts »

Very relevant Greth and interesting :cool:
There is alot to consider here. Comparing cottage industry to those that choose to try and support a family in professional Bonsai.
As I said before I am not one to consider charity to keep someones bonsai business going. Yes I would promote Bonsai so that he industry can grow but I won't put cash in a charity tin as I leave it just makes no sense to me. This does not mean I won't pay for good work either though.
This subject is almost limitless. Yet I feel more than ever I must be careful not to offend.
A demonstration I assisted with about the pine seedling cuttings was interesting as the presenter suggested hat this was not a viable technique for bonsai nurseries as it was too much work.
I am not sure I agree. In mass production it would add say no more than 1 minute per seedling.
A quick calculation of 2 year old pine seedlings including soil pots water fertiliser and time is about $7. That is putting my time out at $20 an hour including the initial training. Won't make me rich but happy with that for doing what I love.
Now this does not include growing area overheads or such but lets Say $10 per seedling should be a good profit for two years. I think well crafted 2 year old seedlings at that is a bargain and we should have more of them.
So a 10 year ground grown tree sounds about right at some where $50 and lets say $200 for the cream of he crop. Yet well crafted JBP will fetch more than double this if done well. So there seems some room to move but the big question is will the demand keep the family well fed?

Then if we add say 5 hours work per year(at $20ph)(basic repot and wire) for the next 30 years plus the normal up keep of $5 per year watering and fertiliser that would be $105 per year that comes to something like $3200.
Add some more overheads consumables or whatever and $5000 is not far of I would say.
But then we must consider demand. I could go to Japan and get a friggen amazing tree for that but I can't bring it here and I am not sure I would be happy working for the wages they do there.

I think a 40 year old hornbeam bonsai at $5000 is a fair price but pity me that I don't have that disposable income. Maybe in 10 years I will have 10 seedlings valued at $500 and I can swap them for a hornbeam 40 years old :tu2:
Last edited by Bretts on April 3rd, 2011, 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by Bretts »

Pup wrote:Its very easy Brett just pluck a number out of the air. Thats what I do ;) ;)
Sounds good Pup I am hoping a bottle of Chivas will put the numbers in my favour :beer: :lol:
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by rowan »

I agree. Most people have no idea of the overheads nurseries face and look at a cheap plant from a backyard grower at a market and ask why they should pay more at a nursery. I have to add here that most nurseries have done away with propagating their own stock but the price would be no lower if they did simply because of the time and care costs.
A nursery is a business that has to cover not only costs but also turn a profit, for their own wages so they can live, as well as to cover low times and possible expansions.

Greth, I gather you have a small backyard business and I applaud you for that and think your prices are reasonable but you would need to increase your profits if you were supporting your family with your herbs and had to pay water rates etc. And herbs are a short term product with high turnover compared to bonsai. This is in no way a critisism I am just pointing out reasons that different stock has different prices.

People complain about my yamadori prices saying that I got them for free so I souldn't be asking so much for them. They don't realise that I have many costs such as travel expenses, water/fertiliser etc for two years or more, insurance and the list goes on. They are not cheap for me because sometimes I have to travel hundreds of km and only come home with a few trees which may, or may not live. My prices, like all bonsai brices don't cover my time at all.

This post is only a complaint that most people don't see the costs involved with bonsai, or any nursery plants when it comes to that. They only see that they can get them cheaper at a market and so we should also have them cheaper.
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by Blackie »

You're right, Rowan, when it comes to professional nurseries who have ongoing costs relating to maintaining an income.

However, when it comes to bonsai trees owned by hobbyists, and I don't care how old or how magnificent the trees are, they are only worth what a buyer will pay.

No one can expect to make real money, nor recoup costs, from a hobby although it's nice if it happens.

A skein of wool costs say $5 and it takes a home knitter $100 to make a jumper. Is that jumper worth $100 plus labour etc. when you can buy one from Kmart for $10?

I am astounded at the prices Aussie ask for bonsai trees when you see what similar, and often far superior trees, sell for in other countries.
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by Pup »

Bretts wrote:
Pup wrote:Its very easy Brett just pluck a number out of the air. Thats what I do ;) ;)
Sounds good Pup I am hoping a bottle of Chivas will put the numbers in my favour :beer: :lol:
I have one unopened and a half one working . What ya think ya chances are.

This has been discussed for some time now.

I remember when I was helping out in a Bonsai nursery, I would get OOH that's a lot. I then asked if it was a woman ( I know Greth ) what it cost ,last time she was at the Hairdressers, invariable it was about $70-00 how long were you there ( I am going back to the 80 early 90 ) half an hour, if it was a Guy what was the last car service 100 how long 3/4 of an hour.
So a tree that is ten years old at $ 200-00 is not expensive then EH. They bought the tree Bob was happy and I got a bonus.

It does come down to what the market will except, as we know what people say I can get one at @%^& for $ 20-00 it is never going to be an easy answer.
Like most things Bonsai there are good and bad, there are magnificent and at a price.

I believe, as I do sell when I have one I am willing to sell I will put a price I think is both good for the Buyer and my self, ( just by equation ) if I do not want to sell one they are asking about, the price is to suit me only, so that if they do buy I am happy with the price.

Collected material has a higher price because of the uniqueness of the stock and the work put into keeping it alive in the initial stages.
This is like most discussions and people, :palm: the anus we all have one, but while the anus points to the ground it will never be settled. :shake:
Just my :2c: Pup
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by bodhidharma »

I started the pricing thing in Leigh's thread and think this is a good thread. I will give it a lot of thought and will then contribute.
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by Mojo Moyogi »

bodhidharma wrote:I started the pricing thing in Leigh's thread and think this is a good thread. I will give it a lot of thought and will then contribute.
Likewise Bodhi.

A link to the post where it all began.. :!: :!: viewtopic.php?f=102&t=7924&start=0 :!: :!:

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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by Pup »

Blackie wrote:You're right, Rowan, when it comes to professional nurseries who have ongoing costs relating to maintaining an income.

However, when it comes to bonsai trees owned by hobbyists, and I don't care how old or how magnificent the trees are, they are only worth what a buyer will pay.

No one can expect to make real money, nor recoup costs, from a hobby although it's nice if it happens.

A skein of wool costs say $5 and it takes a home knitter $100 to make a jumper. Is that jumper worth $100 plus labour etc. when you can buy one from Kmart for $10?

I am astounded at the prices Aussie ask for bonsai trees when you see what similar, and often far superior trees, sell for in other countries.
I was in the UK in 2011 and I was staying at Peter Chans nursery ( Herons Bonsai ) in surrey. He has some magnificent trees there. He was selling Japanese maples for 250-00 pounds that sell here for $ 500-00.

Also some imported stock. From Japan the small Shimpakus were imported at a cost of 450-00 ponds each that is $ 900-00. So what is his mark up to be.

While I was there he sold 4 Junipers for 30,000-00 pounds, each so where ever you go there is expensive and cheap. Whenever you sell quality there is a demand.
Some one who has the Money will pay.
Just :2c: Pup
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by rowan »

Don't get me wrong, I am not complaining as my trees sell very well. I am just saying that most people don't think of the background costs associated with doing business.

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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by Ray »

My :2c:

Outlaying thousands of dollars for a bonsai,is a serious commitment, unlike buying an artwork, your buying a living object, that requires care and maintenance. Unless your prepared to spend the time and effort to sustain the tree, it's money that will go to waste. The number of people that would have the skillset and desire to see that initial investment through, I'm assuming, would be relatively small in the Australian world of bonsai, hence why trees go for far less than their ideal value. It's easier to buy a tree of lesser value and increase it's worth, than to buy a tree of great value and with the best of intentions, actually lessen it's values.
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by MattA »

Forgotten point number 1 ...
No artist ever gets paid for his time or anywhere near it....
unless you become famous/infamous

Point number 2... most of the australian bonsai community have been told from the moment we get involved to "Grow your own" because we cant import..... so to expect thousands for a tree just because it is old is dreaming... If we took our best & compared them to what you can buy in europe or the states ... let alone Japan.. our best would sell at starter prices or less....

When australian bonsai sellers get serious about pricing plants appropriate to quality not age then we may see the shift needed... Well that & a few businesses involved in pure maintenance so it then becomes a truly commercial artistic commodity.. the owner doesnt have to do anything except exhibit the tree as his own & have it on display a week or 2 each year.. the rest of the time someone else can take care of it...

Just my artists right to rant :lol:
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Re: Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

Post by Pup »

My trees are never sold on age, only on quality. Which to me is the most important Point be it 12345.

The auctions in Japan every reflect this.

Back in 1988 two trees sold for the same price one was 350 years the other 180.

Again just my :2c:
Last edited by Pup on April 3rd, 2011, 7:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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