Pricing Bonsai stock and trees

[Guy]

put some photos of trees up --say 4 or 5 of the same type--junipers for e.g. and at varying stages( just photos and no description)and everyone say what they would be willing to pay without knowing the plants history--------could be interesting

[Pup]

put some photos of trees up --say 4 or 5 of the same type--junipers for e.g. and at varying stages( just photos and no description)and everyone say what they would be willing to pay without knowing the plants history--------could be interesting

That is a interesting thought. Here on the forum, I conducted an exercise, but used one tree it was an Australian Native collected. I asked as it was an exercise, what people were willing to pay for this tree.
I gave as much information as I could then left it to the Members. There were some interesting posts. One member had the tree on hold , for about 2 years then it was put up and it is being held for a member who is coming to Perth soon.

He being a much cleverer Computer person could probably find and post the link. As I said it was interesting.

Cheers Pup

[Craig]

Pup's post viewtopic.php?f=102&t=2302&start=0&hilit=value

[Bretts]

Checked out your ebay account Rowan, Wow you are selling some trees cheap, although I reckon this pine is pretty well priced. I would imagine there would be little left of the day after you travel out there dig them up and then put them into pots.
If each sold for $45 that would be $675 total, less (hard to follow your figures but) say $100-200 in materials(fuel pots soil fert water) Say about $400 profit/wages as my best guess. I don't have nursery overheads as well but that sounds ok for 1 day's work plus upkeep for 2 years. The only way I could get a true figure is if I had cost per meter space in a nursery to cover overheads. Then I guess I would have irrigation to minimise time spent watering. But I figure you would need to sell something like 3 (15) lots of these per week to make a meager living just for yourself let alone employees.
Wouldn't mind a closer look at the pine but you don't ship to NSW Hope the recent sales go well.


Have little idea with the Juniper Bodi especially without knowing the initial cost of the material. But I know Burnings would be selling it for more than that.

I did mention demand Leigh, I agree it is a big issue. As much as I would like I can't just keep buying trees so I sometimes wonder how there is as much demand as we do see?
At one point we had at least 5 major bonsai nurseries in NSW which I found amazing.

From Memory Pup's thead was more a gauge of what people where willing to pay. Don't think we have discussed understanding what a nursery needs to charge just to survive in the sought of detail we are here.
Where are the Tafe guys. Do they teach you the business side of pricing stock?

[rowan]

Hi Bretts,

Luckily I have another side of my nursery that brings in more, and another seperate income as well to live off. I couldn't live off my yamadori trees although I would love to I am hoping that the future that Bohdi is invisioning, with more of a bonsai culture and people willing to spend and appreciate yamadori more will happen and I can charge what they are worth and make a full-time income from them. I have worked in nurseries for a few years and understand pricing but the work I do on these trees is out of love at the moment so I am happy as it stands right now.

I do post to NSW but usually not for larger tree as they have to be freighted which costs more than most people are willing to pay.

Cheers,
Rowan

[shibui]

This thread is bringing up some interesting thoughts and ideas..

Brett, sorry about the cost of pots and mix bit. On rereading it I'm not even sure what I meant. I will have to do the calculations again because I actually thought the cost was quite a bit higher? (those decimal points can be a bit tricky sometimes)
re roots: A tap root is the least of the root problems. A tap root can easily be cut off. I have found that without sorting the roots regularly I get roots circling the trunk, growing up/down, etc. When the tree is afew years old the roots near the trunk are quite rigid and often can't be changed short of cutting them off and spending more yearswaiting for replacement roots to grow (pine roots are a bit more flexible than say maples so can be adjusted more readily) Worse still is a single root growing higher than a good radial root system which gives inverse taper to the trunk when removed. I discovered an extreme case a few years ago - Black pines were field planted direct from 10 cm pots. As it was late spring I was reluctant to rootprune and just planted the root ball as it came out of the pot. When these trees were dug 3 years later they all had a woody nebari that was the same shape as a plastic pot with a few roots sticking out into the surrounding soil. These would have been started as seedling cuttings. (I've found that there is very little difference in normal seedlings and seedling cuttings after 2-3 years so don't bother doing the seedling cutting technique any more)
The other reason for regular root work is ramification. If no root pruning is done you get a few strong roots from the trunk. Regular root pruning retards the strong ones and encourages the weak and new ones resulting in more roots from the trunk, a better spread of roots and better ramified surface roots. Regular pruning of down (tap?) roots encourages the radial roots to grow and really improves the buttress/ diameter at ground level.

Rowan, If I read your calculations right (travel 240 km, 15 trees at $4 each) your travel costs are 25c per km?? Maybe you really mean petrol cost?? RACV estimates of actual cost (think tyres, maintenance, insurance, rego, etc) are: small car 45c/km med/lge car 85c/ km 4x4 ute 96.6 c/km. According to these estimates it actually costs you $120 in a small car (which probably won't carry the 20 trees) up to $251 in a 4x4 making the travel cost alone for the 15 surviving trees closer to $17 eachrather than $4.

What is starting to become obvious to me is the hidden costs are bigger than anyone has allowed for- the ones we conveniently forget about or never thought of (water, travel, time)

Leigh is correct about supply and demand affecting price. Not everyone can produce high quality bonsai/ starters (this limits supply) so the experience and techniques of those who can are worth an amount dictated by demand for the product rather than the physical cost of the materials.
Does anyone go into an art gallery and estimate the cost of frame, canvas and paint to value a painting? Why not?

[mickaus]

Rowan, If I read your calculations right (travel 240 km, 15 trees at $4 each) your travel costs are 25c per km?? Maybe you really mean petrol cost?? RACV estimates of actual cost (think tyres, maintenance, insurance, rego, etc) are: small car 45c/km med/lge car 85c/ km 4x4 ute 96.6 c/km. According to these estimates it actually costs you $120 in a small car (which probably won't carry the 20 trees) up to $251 in a 4x4 making the travel cost alone for the 15 surviving trees closer to $17 eachrather than $4.

Should you really take all of these things into account?

Rowan would presumably already have a car/ute so would have to pay Rego anyway (Sunk Cost), same for insurance.

Using the RACV figures for a:
FORD FALCON XT (LPG) FG 4D SEDAN 6 3984 cc LPG 4 SP AUTO SEQ SPORTSHIFT (Admittedly one of the cheaper ones to run as its LPG)

Total Servicing costs, fuel tires and servicing = 14.17c per Km or $14.17 per 100km

So as I see it the total cost of the trip should be:

Servicing: $14.17 x 2.4 = $34
+
Time: Hard to say as he probably also gets some enjoyment from it.
+
Depreciation of his vehicle: Again hard to say how much 240km devalues a car.

The point I am trying to make, is that if you take his time out of the equation it would be a reasonable assumption to say that the trip could easily cost less than $40 assuming that he was already using the equipment for something else

[bodhidharma]

Should you really take all of these things into account?

+
The point I am trying to make, is that if you take his time out of the equation it would be a reasonable assumption to say that the trip could easily cost less than $40 assuming that he was already using the equipment for something else

[/quote]

How can we not take those things into account. If you are running a business, as Rowan is, you have to. I think where we are running aground here is some people are viewing this from a hobby point of view instead of a living. In normal jobs all these things are accounted for because of the TAXMAN. What, do you think we escape these things because we are a Bonsai Nursery and supply someone's hobby. Tell that to a model train establishment that supply's people's hobby. A business is a business.

[mickaus]

Sorry I may have misunderstood.

My impression was that Rowan viewed collecting yamadori as more of a hobby which he gained enjoyment from rather than the core of his businesses, hence the comment about time.

From a very simple economic point of view profit from collecting could be seen as:

Profit = Sale Price + Enjoyment - Vehicle running costs - Material costs(soil, fert etc...) - Depreciation - Time

If, however, you are looking at the same equation as your main source of income, you would likely need to give a far lower weighting to your enjoyment.

I was also trying to show that the cost of the trip minus time is far less than the 45c/km for medium cars shown by Shibui as I am assuming that like me, Rowan would have a car and have to pay rego/insurance anyway

[Pup]

What I am reading into to your post Mikaus, is if you enjoy it you should not charge for it. These guys are business men, and in my experience most people are doing for a living what they enjoy.
Even the general Bonsai hobbyist, has to factor in cost when selling a tree. He cannot afford to give it away just because he enjoys doing it. He had to buy the pot at retail, the soil wire.

If it is a yamadori which most of my natives are, I might have been on a visit. I still have to spend time and effort.

I was selling a piece once. I put a price on it, the buyer said but you have done nothing I had spent time finding it, then dug it up pruned it kept it alive for 2 years.
Sorry I am not going to give it away just because it is my hobby or I was on a holiday when I dug it up.

If this has come across as to strong I do apologize, as it was not my intention, I am just responding to what I see.

Cheers Pup

[bodhidharma]

Absolutely no need to apologise Mickaus. As the heading suggests we, as a business, need to take all the costings into account when we are trying to establish a price for a tree. As i suggested, it makes it hard for the hobbyist Bonsai person to look at it from our point of view. This is why A lot of Nursery's in Australia close up. Because there is so many hobbyists out there selling trees, it is difficult for us to compete.

[bodhidharma]

Well spoken Pup.

[mickaus]

I'm not by any means suggesting that if you enjoy it you should do it for free. Just that you should take that enjoyment into account when deciding if it its worth continuing to do something or not.

For example, if you were to be a gardener somewhere like the ANU, sounds like a great job to me. Out in the open air sunshine, you could probably expect to be payed around $50k a year
On the other hand, if you were to be a miner working in a coal mine, you have a much less enjoyable job and could probably expect to get 100k+ a year

I'm not saying it's fair but in reality price is often largely outside your control.
Price is not necessarily based on costs and has much more to do with supply and what the customer will pay.

The decision a businessman must make is, "Is this business worth my time? or should I peruse a different occupation?"
The decision a hobbyist must make is, "Is the cost of this hobby worth the enjoyment I gain? or should I peruse a different hobby?"

[Ash]

Because there is so many hobbyists out there selling trees, it is difficult for us to compete.

Bodhi I understand where you are coming from but: no hobbyists = no bonsai trade.

A couple of Q's someone may be able to answer:
If the hobbyists are undervaluing their sale trees then do the professionals run around buying hobbyist trees to resell at a profit?
Is the market already flooded? ie. too many trees, too many professionals and too many producing hobbyists?
What is the minimum, mean and maximum nursery bench life of a nursery sale bonsai in your nursery?

Ash

p.s. Mick I agree with that - the less you enjoy a job the more you may expect to get paid- supply and demand.

[Blackie]

....This is why A lot of Nursery's in Australia close up. Because there is so many hobbyists out there selling trees, it is difficult for us to compete.

I think if you're totally honest (I mean everyone here), the majority of bonsai nurseries in Australia are hobby 'farms'. I think every business in this thread has admitted that without alternative sources they couldn't survive on their bonsai business.

Without the reputation of a Ray Nesci, I don't see how a bonsai nursery can survive on bonsai alone. Look at how many have closed or are up for sale. And with competition for bonsai tools etc from eBay, Bunnings and the like, I would say the future looks bleak. Looking through old issues of Bonsai Down Under, I'm very surprised at how many more bonsai businesses there were in the Sydney area alone years ago compared to now. When Ray retires, we'll see the decline of the last of one-stop professional bonsai businesses in Australia.

Added to eBay too is the direct importing and/or bulk-buying by club and forum members. This can't help the bonsai nurseries either.

Like DVD rental shops (who'd buy one of those now?) perhaps the days of bonsai nurseries as a single entity business is coming to a close and bonsai sales (trees, tools etc) will be conducted via forums, clubs, eBay and the like.

I often wonder too if the number of bonsai enthusiasts is actually declining too. But that's for another topic.