AusBonsai

Rory wrote: In a lot of ways Mike is like you are with Tokoname pots. He is critical, but appreciates a unique and different piece. Just like you would probably skew your nose up at a mass produced chinese pot that is factory produced with the same formula over and over.

Fair call.

treeman wrote: I'm just as critical (believe me) if not more so, of my own trees which I have worked on for 30 years or so. Most of them have been formed with all the traditional techniques we have learned from the Japanese. Some of the younger deciduous stuff (10 years or so) are giving me more satisfaction than the older boring formulaic trees. They can't really be changed now, (or at least not without great difficulty) so I persist in the direction they are headed. For a while they may give a certain visual pleasure, but that is usually short lived simply because their future is so predictable. The ones I can change I am changing.
What do I think is good? Many, many things. Some of the Japanese conifer masterpieces are superb, some are downright repulsive to me now. Most are just plain tiresome and un-inspirational whereas 20 years ago I would probably have knelt down before them in awe.
When I was young I loved Ferraris, now they don't rate very highly. Taste changes and matures over time. Subtlety starts to have more weight and depth. Slickness and finish, less so. More shallow, less meaningful. Certainly less potential.

I appreciate such an honest and dignified response.
I think everyone is their own worst critic... I know I am mine.
While everyone's preferences will differ to varying degrees, I still find inspiration in creations I probably would not pursuit myself.
Once you appreciate the amount of time and effort that someone has bestowed on almost any tree on display, I can always find a positive attribute, no matter how small I may consider it..... however, repulsive is never a word that enters my mind.

hi Mods, it might be worth splitting this thread as it is a fair way off track from the original post.... however.....

I've been thinking about this idea of looking toward and taking inspiration from nature.

I have a bunch of questions i'd love to chat through (perhaps over a beer at the convention) but one to get started is below.

It is impossible to replicate natural trees in bonsai. The very nature that we are making miniature versions is some level of abstracting the tree out in the 'wild'. This level of abstraction or omission carries through to many other facets of bonsai eg. less twigs then a full grown tree, different 'ratios' of trunk and taper, leaf size comparatively etc etc.

So even if trying to replicate nature there is a level of interpretation that the grower / artist (depending on your views of bonsai and art) does to the tree. Even if they are trying to make an exact scaled down train set model tree via bonsai it will never be a perfect copy. Some interpretation always has to happen.

Where do you see the acceptable line in the sand? As there is an unavoidable translation via the grower/artist into the bonsai where certain information is abstracted or honed back, how do you decide on when this point has been reached and how do you decide when it has been crossed? Does it not fall back to personal taste?

Now I am even more excited to hear Treeman's (Mike) talk "Breaking the Mould" at the convention and then Jow's demonstration later on the same day. ("Spuiking" Hint Hint still time to register for the convention!!!!

David

Above post ,"the line in the sand" gets washed away with each tide. My take is that a person who has a tree that is over 20 years old is not about to go a "directional" change, given they themselves don't have the "intestinal fortitude" nor the decades ahead to manage that change, given that we are all in our mid/late something-a-rather years, given that most 8 yr olds don't have 20G+ to buy a 50 year ( prices and age may vary ) tree and say to themselves, nah, bugga that, I'm gonna chop that last 40 years growth off to that tiny bud and start again, after all, it's my tree. A lot of givens i know. I have no idea

Jow wrote:hi Mods, it might be worth splitting this thread as it is a fair way off track from the original post.... however.....

I've been thinking about this idea of looking toward and taking inspiration from nature.

I have a bunch of questions i'd love to chat through (perhaps over a beer at the convention) but one to get started is below.

It is impossible to replicate natural trees in bonsai. The very nature that we are making miniature versions is some level of abstracting the tree out in the 'wild'. This level of abstraction or omission carries through to many other facets of bonsai eg. less twigs then a full grown tree, different 'ratios' of trunk and taper, leaf size comparatively etc etc.

So even if trying to replicate nature there is a level of interpretation that the grower / artist (depending on your views of bonsai and art) does to the tree. Even if they are trying to make an exact scaled down train set model tree via bonsai it will never be a perfect copy. Some interpretation always has to happen.

Where do you see the acceptable line in the sand? As there is an unavoidable translation via the grower/artist into the bonsai where certain information is abstracted or honed back, how do you decide on when this point has been reached and how do you decide when it has been crossed? Does it not fall back to personal taste?

I agree with all this Joe. As for personal taste, it's without question that it must fall back onto the decision of the individual. I'm certainly not trying to force my ideas onto others. I hope it doesn't seem that way! At the same time though we need to realize that we ALL have our own limitations and can only work within those limitations.
Here is a favourite quote I recently read from the famous Japanese sculptor Noguchi......
''It's true that we come to experience with our own limitations and see only that for which we are prepared'' In other words, I'm not going to convince anybody of anything. It's only those who already have questions in this regard that might find something to agree with or to perhaps help to spark their own investigations.

I find all the points of view discussed (argued) very interesting. To this old and addled brain it proves to me one thing.
Bonsai is the most over thought subject ever,for no definitive answer.

Just my two pence worth

As a representative of the Committee of the Illawarra Bonsai Society I would agree with Joe that the thread has gone way off topic from the original intent - an invite to join our club for a demonstration - to be a worthy discussion of the merits of Mauro’s previous work with the NBPCA.


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I disagree Jamo - just shy of 1600 views on this post. I think the night with Mauro has received way more publicity than if the topic had not been "hijacked". While the mood is kept polite and respectful I see no reason to interfere. Mike has been very restrained - perhaps he is mellowing with age ?

Thank you. All.

I have been watching this thread ebb and flow and I think some respect and restraint has been shown by participants.

When Treeman made his initial comment - I nodded at the screen. Mike's thoughts reflected my view but my view is not informed by deep knowledge nor years of experience - hence I kept quiet. What part does a novice play when the wise are debating... ?

So ... why did I start this thread by saying Thank you. All?

I recently left another forum - specifically associated with cymbidium orchids - after I got sick of all the personal sniping and cr@p that came with the knowledge and wisdom. I did not participate in that personal stuff but in the end I got sick or reading it and I left quietly ...

I said thank you because we touched that personal stuff here but mostly people have tried to understand the perspectives of others without getting personal and petty. So thanks.

For what it is worth... I know what I like and the direction I hope to take my Bonsai as time passes. In short, my philosophy is to respect history and knowledge, learn technique and skills but in the end, design as I see nature. It's selfish really - the art is in my mind - I am not designing for others. I want to create something in my courtyard that reminds me of what I might see in broader environs. Of course, I seek the advice and guidance of more knowledgable folk (that's why I am here!) - it is how I learn but in the end ...I distil any ideas through my own lens.

And Treeman - thanks for saying it as you see it. I find your thoughts insightful and clear.

And everyone ... cheers for sharing you collective wisdom and thoughts too.

I'll throw my hat in the ring here with a bit of first hand experience

I asked Mauro on Wednesday how he felt about working on trees he knew had been on the hands of revered masters. His response to me came across as confidently humble and every bit what I would expect of a master

He said he feels no need to stamp his name on trees that he works on, if he doesnt believe that anything needs to be changed he will just do what needs to be done as routine maintenance, If the tree could be made better by more work then he would do what he felt needed to be done,

I asked if he felt like some professionals felt pressured or obligated to change a trees direction when working on it, as if not doing so would reflect poorly on the persons ability, and what impressed me the most is that he said that in this case the work of someone with an appropriate skill level will show through even with the most minor touches.

I have now had the pleasure of spending two full days with him, and I would spend a third at the drop of a hat

Here is what he helped me with To this We also worked on this little one I am happy for everybody to discuss the changes made to the above tree, for the better or worse, and where the styling sits in regards to cookie cutter versus appropriate for the tree

I had a blast, I like the trees, for me it was a day very well spent

Kerrin

Wow Kez, that juniper revamp is amazing. Well done to you both

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kez wrote: I have now had the pleasure of spending two full days with him, and I would spend a third at the drop of a hat

Here is what he helped me with

IMG_6110 (1024x683).jpg

To this

IMG_6373 (1024x683).jpg

I am happy for everybody to discuss the changes made to the above tree, for the better or worse, and where the styling sits in regards to cookie cutter versus appropriate for the tree

I had a blast, I like the trees, for me it was a day very well spent

Kerrin

Holey Crap!!!!!!!!
This post floored me.
Best thing I have seen all day, and best I have felt about myself all week.
Why?
2 years ago...… :
http://www.bonsaisouth.com.au/forum/ind ... t=30#51065

haha...

excellent foresight there

kez wrote:I'll throw my hat in the ring here with a bit of first hand experience

I asked Mauro on Wednesday how he felt about working on trees he knew had been on the hands of revered masters. His response to me came across as confidently humble and every bit what I would expect of a master

He said he feels no need to stamp his name on trees that he works on, if he doesnt believe that anything needs to be changed he will just do what needs to be done as routine maintenance, If the tree could be made better by more work then he would do what he felt needed to be done,

I asked if he felt like some professionals felt pressured or obligated to change a trees direction when working on it, as if not doing so would reflect poorly on the persons ability, and what impressed me the most is that he said that in this case the work of someone with an appropriate skill level will show through even with the most minor touches.

I have now had the pleasure of spending two full days with him, and I would spend a third at the drop of a hat

Here is what he helped me with

IMG_6110 (1024x683).jpg

To this

IMG_6373 (1024x683).jpg

We also worked on this little one

IMG_6370 (1024x683).jpg

I am happy for everybody to discuss the changes made to the above tree, for the better or worse, and where the styling sits in regards to cookie cutter versus appropriate for the tree

I had a blast, I like the trees, for me it was a day very well spent

Kerrin

The viewing angle definitely looks better but I'm a bit concerned with the condition of the tree?