Tokoname Pots, Chop or Not to Chop.

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Pearcy001
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Tokoname Pots, Chop or Not to Chop.

Post by Pearcy001 »

Hi guys,

Been checking out a few Tokoname pots of late, but have a question for the more knowledgeable if possible.

This isn't a questions about the mass produced Tokoname pots made by a unknown potter, but about the pots made by the well known and master potter's, where they decide to only sign the pot and not use any form of chop.

For example. Aiba Koyo has 3 different chops from what I've read. I'm aware there are 3 members in his family who all produce pots, thats not what im refering to.

I'm talking about the different chops he himself uses in order for buyers to differentiate between the production line, the higher quality and the really special pieces he makes.

But what does it mean if he decides he will use no chop at all and just sign??

Is it a matter of looking at a pot and understanding yourself if it is just slip mould or if many more hours went into it than first though?

Bigei is a potter who from what I have seen, seems to do this often.

Thoughts?

Pearcy.

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Last edited by Pearcy001 on March 23rd, 2018, 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Tokoname Pots, Chop or Not to Chop.

Post by wrcmad »

Hi Pearcy,

I am not at all an expert, but I have a little knowledge on Tokoname pots. I imported and traded the pots for a while, have a fair personal collection, and have visited a few of the kiln's and workshops too - including the likes of Koyo and Yamafusa. Yamafusa even gave me a tutorial on making his pots, then let me make one :tu: , though it was quickly scrapped into the clay recycle bin when I was finished :lol: .
I'll give you my take on it... for what it's worth.
Pearcy001 wrote: I'm talking about the different chops he himself uses in order for buyers to differentiate between the production line, the higher quality and the really special pieces he makes.

But what does it mean if he decides he will use no chop at all and just sign??
The chop is a kiln mark - indicating only which workshop/kiln the pot was produced in. The chops can vary, as they often change throughout a potters career. For example, Tofukuji used 15 different chop marks through out his lengthy career.
Most of the kilns have workshops attached where several potters (master and assistants) work side-by side. If a pot has a chop only, then it may or may not have been made by the kiln owner/master (usually not). Instead, an assistant potter may have made the pot under the watch of the owner - using the exact clay, moulds and glazes as any other pot coming out of that particular kiln. - the chop is then only allowed on the pot if it passes inspection with the owner, and meets his/her standards. It is analogous to Ryan Neil working on a client tree as an apprentice of Kimura - the quality and workmanship must pass muster with Kimura, as it is his reputation at stake and his name that is attributed to the work, even though he may not have had a hand in it.

If the pot is signed, then it is most likely the owner/master whose hands produced that pot - the signature may also be accompanied by the kiln mark (chop), but not always. If there is a signature on the pot, then there is really no question which kiln it was produced in, so sometimes the kiln mark (chop) is not there as it is not considered necessary.

Some times there will be extra inscriptions along side the potters signature - usually indicating a one-off or limited edition pot produced for a particular exhibition or special occasion/celebration. These pots are usually priced at a premium.
Pearcy001 wrote:Is it a matter of looking at a pot and understanding yourself if it is just slip mould or if many more hours went into it than first though?

Bigei is a potter who from what I have seen, seems to do this often.

Thoughts?
If it is a slip-cast, then I would suggest it is not been produced by a high-end Tokoname potter. They don't use slip-casting for good Tokoname ware. They use higher quality stone-ware clays.
However, (like any genre of art) there is a definite heirarchy or ranking in the desirability of the products from each Tokoname kiln - some is definitely warranted based on quality and caftsmanship, while some is personal preference.
Hope this helps?
Last edited by wrcmad on March 23rd, 2018, 10:00 pm, edited 9 times in total.
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Re: Tokoname Pots, Chop or Not to Chop.

Post by MJL »

Thanks Pearcy for the question and wrcmad for your response; taking the time to share your knowledge - which seems more than ‘limited’ - very instructive for us newbies. Cheers. Mark


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Re: Tokoname Pots, Chop or Not to Chop.

Post by Pearcy001 »

Thanks WRCMAD!!

I greatly appreciate the time you took to share the response and thanks for clearing up the Chop No Chop question.

Slip cast probably wasn't a great example by me - I don't really understand how the actual production occurs so forgive my poor example given.


If I can pick your brain a little further?

I took this excerpt from a online blog at;

https://www.google.com/amp/s/bonsaiprel ... nese-pots/

The following is in relation to Aiba Koyo - sorry he's just an easy example.

------------------------------------------------------------------

"The hanko can represent different things depending on the artist, but more than likely they indicate either the artist, the kiln, the location it was made, or collection it is a part of. Some artists change their hanko over time, so knowledge of that evolution can help you date the pot and establish its value."

"This first pot bares (what I understand to be) the standard Koyo hanko. It is one of the production line series, and as such is likely the least expensive of the Koyo pots."

"The second most valuable Koyo pots bare the arch stamp and I understand they are made at Koyo’s home kiln. I will have two of these to show in the next couple of posts.

"The third and most valuable type of Koyo pot bares the Koyo Hanko, Japanese fan stamp, and Aiba’s hand engraved signature between them. A great example can be found at the Nebari bonsai post I mention earlier."

------------------------------------------------------------------

I have read a couple of times that the arched chop is for the good stuff then the fan chop (the one that looks like a ginko leaf) is only used for the really limited stuff with unique glazes and extra detailed pieces.

In your experience do you think that is the case? Or do you think some people are trying to look into it too hard and it is simple an evolution of the potter's chop?

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Last edited by Pearcy001 on March 24th, 2018, 10:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tokoname Pots, Chop or Not to Chop.

Post by wrcmad »

Pearcy001 wrote: I have read a couple of times that the arched chop is for the good stuff then the fan chop (the one that looks like a ginko leaf) is only used for the really limited stuff with unique glazes and extra detailed pieces.

In your experience do you think that is the case? Or do you think some people are trying to look into it too hard and it is simple an evolution of the potter's chop?
I agree with this summary as being the case, but I think there is more to add. This is my take on Koyo chop marks:

All the run-of-mill pottery produced by the Koyo workshop has the standard Koyo hanko (chop mark):
Koyochop.jpg
While in general this grade of Koyo is the least expensive, it is not always the case. Nor does it mean that this grade is necessarily of lesser quality – it is usually A-grade quality Tokoname-ware. However, there are some caveats to price in this class of Koyo. Over the years, the clay type that Koyo used has changed, and some of the glazes have also evolved from what they used to be. Vintage Koyo’s standout easily as they were based on a dark coloured clay – well, actually a light coloured clay with a dark coating. This gives the pots a different look, feel and character to the more modern pots, which are based on a light coloured clay. Personally, I prefer and chase the vintage Koyo’s, because of their characteristics, and because some of the glazes are no longer produced today. If one of these vintage run-of-mill pots grabs my attention, I will not hesitate to pay a premium for it. Here is an example from my own collection of a vintage Koyo in oribe glaze based on the dark clay (see my avatar):
Koyovintchop1.jpg
And here is an example of a more modern oribe in the light clay:
koyo mod.jpg
It has to be said that whether this grade of Koyo pot is vintage or not, the variation in glazes that come out of a wood firing can affect desirability (and price) within a single kiln-firing. An example is the unique patterns and hues on any oribe glazing which can vary from plain greens to beautiful mottled blues and greys – the better one perceives the glaze pattern to be, the higher the price fetched for the pot. So this vintage/modern rule can be huge generalisation.

The arched (or half-moon) chop indicates (from my understanding) that the pot is Koyo’s own work, and fired in his own kiln:
Koyo half moon.jpg
I have rarely seen this arch-chop stamped on anything bigger than a shohin-size pot. These pots will sometimes come cloth-wrapped in their own wooden presentation box, which gives the impression of a premium product. However, I have seen shohin Koyo’s with the standard hanko also come in these presentation boxes. It is generally perceived by westerners that the half-moon chop is stamped as a premium product (because some of them come in a box?), but in my observation it does not attract a noticeable premium. In reality, the same clay and glazes are used, and in traditional wood-fired kilns, the quality of a glazed pot will not be known until it is retrieved from the kiln after firing – so IMHO this perception of premium grade may be a bit of misguided belief.

The fan, or ginko chop is nearly always accompanied by the standard chop, with Koyo’s signature in between. Here is an example from my collection:
koyobigginko.jpg
This ginko chop generally indicates a commissioned pot/custom order – so by default is an indication of limited quantity. It can also include an extra inscription (as shown on the right hand side in the picture above) which may detail who the pot was commissioned by, or maybe for what event the pot was commissioned. These pots can have unique glazes or detailed pieces – basically whatever the customer ordered. As such, they tend to command a premium price, as they are a bit more unique and collectible.

Another Koyo chop you may come across is known in the western world as the fuji-chop, as it resembles Mt Fuji:
koyofuyoen.jpg
The Mt Fuji chop is actually an indication that the pot was commissioned by the Fuyo-en Nursery in Omiya, on the outskirts of Tokyo. Anyone who has visited Fuyo-en will know it is considered one of the benchmarks in terms of quality deciduous trees. So the fact that this nursery commissioned Koyo pots makes perfect sense in regards to the glazes available. These pots also generally command a premium price for much the same reason as the ginko chops – uniqueness and collectability. They are also considered very useable, having been commissioned by a nursery for use to pot trees, rather than just to sit on one’s pot-collection-display-cabinet.

I will reiterate that this information is merely what I have learned in my travels, and if anyone has more accurate information to add – please do.
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Re: Tokoname Pots, Chop or Not to Chop.

Post by Keep Calm and Ramify »

MJL wrote:Thanks Pearcy for the question and wrcmad for your response; taking the time to share your knowledge - which seems more than ‘limited’ - very instructive for us newbies. Cheers. Mark


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I agree. Thanks for the detailed responses WRCMAD, been reading on with interest - going out the back now to check my "chops"! :yes:
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Re: Tokoname Pots, Chop or Not to Chop.

Post by Pearcy001 »

Thanks wrcmad,

Beautiful pots you have :clap: I especially love the first one.

It's amazing what someone can produce withe the combination of glaze recipe, control of oxygen and kiln positioning.

I too have one of the arch stamped pots, and you're right, it is shohin sized.

Image

Here's one I also have that you may like. It is one of the darker clays, so presumably from what you're saying it may be older?

It's a much more subtle oribe blue/green compared to some of the stuff he is known to produce, which personally is more to my taste. IMO Some can be a little too overwhelming, but I guess the really intense glazes are produced more for the pot themselves to be the artwork and not really intended to have a tree in them.

ImageImageImageImageImage

It seems this has now turned more into a thread about Koyo since my original question was answered, so does anyone else have any Aiba Koyo pots they'd also like to share to keep the thread rolling?? Feel free to post them on this thread if you do. But also if you have another take on the original post please share that too as I'd love to hear it.

Also wrcmad, if you ever feel like sharing more knowledge on the potter's of Tokoname, I for one would certainly appreciate reading the threads, as I'm sure many others on here would too.

Once again thanks for sharing, truely appreciate the amount of effort you have put into your responses for me :tu:

Cheers,
Pearcy.


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Last edited by Pearcy001 on March 24th, 2018, 10:52 pm, edited 17 times in total.
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Re: Tokoname Pots, Chop or Not to Chop.

Post by Hutch11 »

Amazing information.

I love the history behind each pot.

Here are two of my own I purchased years ago in Omiya Village. I have a few people interested in buying them. Any idea on what price I should indicate. I have no idea.
7B374B82-E2AA-4DC4-A4D7-9B6F2F2F5BA7.jpeg[/attachment[attachment=0]7B374B82-E2AA-4DC4-A4D7-9B6F2F2F5BA7.jpeg
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