Question regarding moss/companion plants

[Jason]

Hey guys,

I'm just wondering about moss or other plants that are in the same pot as the bonsai.

Is it a good idea? I've was told that it doesn't negatively effect the bonsai... but I'm reading through the Ausbonsai Wiki at the moment and found that it actually is a bad idea.

I was hesitant to do it, as I thought the battle for soil/nutrients/water/etc wouldn't be a good thing, but... I was told it would be fine.

One looks to be Sagina, but I'm not 100%, definately a groundcover though, not moss.

Another pot has some Ivy (that just screamed bad idea to me, as I know Ivy can be invasive), mondo grass and another groundcover (its a herb of some type)... all in the same pot with my bonsai.

Now it looks nice, but I'm worried about the long term effect that they may have on my bonsai. Should I rip them out before they take hold?

Appreciate the replies, and sorry for the newby questions.

[xtolord]

There is no definite answer for that, each bonsaika has his/her own views from past exp or from reading stuffs online.
There are advantages and disadvantages.

First the moss:
Here are some articles:
http://ofbonsai.org/species-specific/ac ... oss-basics
http://www.bonsaiempire.com/miscellaneous/bonsai-moss

My personal views:
The moss adds to the look of a tree in most cases.
It has the advantage of preventing the top surface to go completely dry.
On the other hand, fresh or dry moss [ not dead, but dry as in "not moist" ] is water repellent.
If the moss has covered the whole pot, you will need to get the moss soaked wet before any watering would permeate and reach the soil in the pot.
This means 3 or more consecutive watering sessions:
#1 : watering to get the moss soaking wet
#2 : watering to water the soil in the pot
#3 or more : watering to make sure the soil is well moist.

Alternatively you could place the pots in a basin of water for some minutes.

Another fact about the moss is that it will grow for one thing and could potentially host lil bugs.
If left unchecked it might even grow on the tree.

Personally I usually add a small patch of moss in my pots, I usually try to keep the nebari or a radius around the trunk moss free, this gives a little look to the tree and does not hinder the watering.
Eventually by the time the next repot comes about, the small moss patch would have covered the whole pot if you've left it unchecked.
On a side note, in some cases, even if you don't add moss, it will grow on its own on the top soil.

The moss roots are superficial and will attach to only a few mm of the top soil.
At most it will nourish itself with the first mm of top soil.
So I doubt the moss will starve your tree if you feed and water properly AND if your bonasi roots are already well developped.

--------------------------

For the planting other plants into the same pot as your bonsai, that's another story.
You will have to test it I'm afraid.
I have some pots with some small plants coexisting.
There are several factors that you should consider here, here are some facts you should know about the plants you want to add to your pot:
1. The root growth of the other plant(s).
2. The root spread of the other plant(s).
3. The growth speed of the other plant(s).

Its best if you use a plant that does not have a super active root growth, that has few short roots and is a slow grower.
If the plant you plan to add to the same pot as your bonsai grows quickly, gives off lots of roots and reach far in the pot, then that plant will compete with your bonsai to get the nutrients and water. And that's not good for your bonsai.

I have tried with ferns and small plants that grow from bulbs, but those are usually temporary ornaments with negligible root structures, also they are no something that I would keep for ever in the pot.
They either die off after a few months or get removed during the next repotting.

--------------------------

Also look for "saika bonsai" - Its a mix of bonsai and kusamono in the same pot.
Not really my style or what I would recommend, but its an alternative.


I hope that helps you out.

[shibui]

Hi DENAz
xtolord has got in ahead of me but basically I agree. Other plants can be grown with a bonsai as long as you can manage them and they don't take over - either above ground or the roots. I think some growers use extra plants to distract the buyers from noticing that the bonsai is crap but there are legitimate landscape plantings that include extra plants however I think these are not considered bonsai.
I prefer to have my accent plants in separate pots that can be displayed with the bonsai if/when I want to.

[Jason]

Thanks a lot for that info

I like the idea of having them in a separate pot much better, as I think it would be easier for me to handle.

I will experiment with it though, as it sounds interesting

[bki]

Hi DENAz,
great article you brought up and nice explanation and insight from xtolord and shibui (hope to read more of this kind of replies).
I also like to grow moss on my shohins and minis. What's the use of bonsai if you don't enjoy staring at them.
Care should be taken when growing moss on your bonsai. If not properly pressed down during planting, moss will die and will leave a dark space and a good hiding place for pest and bacterias.
My mentors taught me one technique and it really works for me. my soil mix is designed for lateral water transport and i use 50 % turface as my main aggregate.patch of moss would more likely won't stick to it so when i collect the moss, i cut deeper to keep a thin layer of the soil to keep it alive. the diameter of my moss planting is always a couple of centimeter smaller than my root balls and the rest is covered with peebles. i then cover the newly planted moss with wet sphagnum moss for a week to protect it from being disturbed when you water.
regards,
BKI
P.S. Shibui, the minis keep powering up. i don't know if it's because i am a good gardener (which i am not) or your trees are tough enough to handle my lousyness. Thanks a lot mate.

[Jason]

Thanks for that BKI

I've started playing around with the moss I've found around my place, and just seeing how it works/doesn't work. Not putting it on my bonsai as yet, want to make sure I can keep it alive first

Are there many different varieties of moss in Aus? The one I've found at my place is just growing on the sand in the back yard, and another one on a limestone wall, but I'm not sure if they are different or not.

[bki]

Yeah alot of them. i collect moss and keep them on ferrero (chocs) boxes to keep them humid and keep them under the bench.
i always have ferrero boxes in the car trunk ready.

[bki]

i suggest keep them alive first. put a thin layer of your potting mix on a plastic container with lid to see if they will thrive and see how they look when they grow.
i have some collected from the roof gutter that form some mounds when they thicken. Some grow so rapidly and thick.

[Bebbas]

How do you keep this stuff alive?

I can buy a tree with a lovely covering of moss (I have even had different varieties of moss at that) and it will die off. I water my trees religously every day so it cant be because it has dried out but it just seems to brown off.

[xtolord]

"How do you keep this stuff alive?"
Wow, now that's a tough one
Seriously I just apply it and water and feed the plant in a "normal" way, and that just seems to do the trick.
The moss will need to have :
1. Light = Obviously, and unless you are growing your bonsai indoors that should not be an issue.

2. Humidity = Again obvious, and since you're adamant that you're watering as it should, the issue of the dying moss must lie elsewhere.

3. Food/Nutrients = It may seem less obvious, but its still a plant and it still needs nutrients. It will generate the food via its green "leaves".
In nature it grows best on dirt, soil, walls etc with some amount of nutrients but nothing too rich that would burn it away.
>>>> You might have one possible reason here, if you are either not feeding your plant at all or over feeding your plant with too high concentration that might be killing it off. Well I doupt if underfeeding or not feeding your plant might kill the moss of. But overfeeding your plant without proper fertilizer concentration knowledge might.

4. An anchoring medium = It is still a plant, and it has roots even if they are microscopic.This means that it NEEDS to have a medium on which to anchor itself and draw out nutrients. Usually its on dirt, walls or the likes. Don't forget to wet the moss before applying it onto the bonsai soil.
>>>> That might be another reason. If your soil mix is too inorganic/sterile, the anchoring medium might be preventing the moss from anchoring as it should an in time die off.
Have a go at : http://ofbonsai.org/species-specific/ac ... oss-basics
It explains this anchoring/soil relation, search this "The key to successful application and continued health of moss onto your bonsai soil is the soil itself. "
Ohh its worth reading it from the start too


There is also a direct relation between your soil mix, watering and the way you feed your plant, too long to explain it here. I'm not saying it is the reason your moss is dying, but it might be related... Anyhow its good bonsai knowledge, so it won't harm you
Walter pall explain it very well in this videos:
Walter Pall - about modern substrates used for bonsai - Part I = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccOGUj9b6dc
Walter Pall - about modern substrates used for bonsai - Part II = http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pij3eGv-nW0
The article : http://walter-pall-bonsai.blogspot.com/ ... glish.html
The summary pretty sums it up

Summary: Do all three or nothing! You have no choice here. To just pick one method and refuse the others will end in disaster. Those who do 'super feeding' using old-fashioned soil, and insufficient watering will kill trees. Those who use modern substrates, aggressive watering and fertilizes like the old days will have very weak and, in the end, dead trees. That's all there is to it.

Another reason that it might be dying could be because of use of external chemicals. Pesticides, fungicides, etc. I'm not sure if they affect all moss, but some do "burn" or kill the moss.



Their might be an altogether different reason for your moss dying, the moss itself might be weak or it reached the end of its life... maybe... Or it might be drowning from too much watering. Well this last part is just stupid speculation. Try to check out the other factual points first.

Hope it helped
Cheers
X

[Pup]

Unless it is for holding the muck for a slab planting, moss is purely decorative. So when you are displaying the trees it is used prudently, accent plants are used to form part of the display so they are a seperate entity, not planted in the pot, with the tree.

Any thing that is in the pot with roots, compeats with the tree for nutrients and water. Too much moss is bad as it is water repelent when too thick.

So unless you are showing just a good cover of gravel, or iron stone.

Pup

[Ellen]

Pup, do you mean moss should be used sparingly for display?

[Pup]

Pup, do you mean moss should be used sparingly for display?

Atheistically, it is to create the feeling of grass growing around the tree, you will notice that not too much grass grows right up to the trunk of trees in paddocks.

If you go into the hills and see trees that are growing with a lean you will note that the grass grows on the sunny side, moss on the other hand grows in the shade. Which proves that moss only needs the DEW to grow not water so do not water your trees to suit the moss.

Pup

[Ellen]

All the trees in the Marc Noelanders Trophy have wall to wall moss.

[Pup]

All the trees in the Marc Noelanders Trophy have wall to wall moss.

Good on Them, I have given an answer to a question you want to debate it that is your prerogative.

However in The Nippon Kokufu ten they do as I have said, in most instances, and in a lot of shows I have participated as well as competitions. I have also done the same.
The tree that won last years competition here, and was peoples choice did not have wall to wall as you say moss.

Pup