Things we don't much do in bonsai. Why?

Rory · Post by **Rory** » March 22nd, 2019, 9:32 am

boom64 wrote:A little unsure about the" Natural Look" being just a quick fix . A good tree can be just as time consuming and complex as a Traditional styled tree in my opinion.. John.

It is sad to hear some of the views expressed here.

There are 1,000,000's of unique styles of our natural trees, I implore enthusiasts of open minds to pick one you like that looks impressive, rather than a random skinny, straggly, sun-starved tree, if that is unsightly to you.

I've seen endless beautifully natural and majestic Casuarinas, Melaleucas, Leptos, Banksias. The list goes on. I've seen straggly, sun-starved, sparse examples of weak and struggling trees that look ill and unsightly too.

Choosing to style a tree in its natural form is a skill in its own merit and would be unfair to be discredited.

Gavin is simply showcasing a particular example of different trees in their native forest element.
We already have great artists here that have produced astounding material that appears naturally styled.

Grant Bowie wrote:And don’t forget “masterfull inactivity”, knowing when to leave well enough alone. A natural bonsai can emerge over time but it may end up taking just as much lineal time to produce as a ”traditional specimen” but of course with less effort but with more will power (or really its Won’t Power or Don’t Power or don’t even think about it power”)

That is a very profound summation.

GavinG · Post by **GavinG** » March 22nd, 2019, 5:24 pm

Thanks all for your comments. This will be long, as I would like to answer each comment.

kez: I did not say "an exact scale replica of a natural tree", more that there are elements in nature that are way more exciting than what we usually see in bonsai. Quite the opposite of what you said. No-one is crucifying anyone, that's just ridiculous.

shibui: about close and far view - it's no problem at all showing close, intricate and complex detail in bonsai - it's just nature with all the boring bits cut out. And it does take time to grow/evolve/develop. It's not something you can wizz up in an afternoon with some wire. Bonsai will heighten your awareness by focussing on the element(s) of design,where in the bush there's a lot of other stuff going on. I am clearly NOT suggesting that you show "every twig and leaf" - quite the opposite, again.

lisa: Yes, "Blue Poles" was wildly popular when they bought it... Completely unnatural of course.

KCaR: Thanks for the photo. The more we see and absorb what's out there, the more we can steal and transform. NOT a photographic replica!

wrcmad: I am not, as I said, after a "photographic replica of nature", or an easy way to justify sloppy bonsai technique. Quite the opposite. It takes excellent technique and fine artistry to make any of the elements I highlighted work as bonsai.

"Complex dense shapes" need not cause dieback, if there is the "see-through" texture in the Euc branch photo, for instance. It's just careful management, as with all bonsai. Neat layering and tight clipping is just lazy habit from pine-tree bonsai, completely out of place with natives.

re ground cover - for God's sake don't go outside! You'll be Appalled by the Neglected Crappy Lazy bush all around you. For mine, matching the ground-cover to the natural habit of the tree is the opposite of lazy.

boom64: yep.

Bowie: any more "masterful inactivity" here and my trees will go on strike, or leave home.

It is much harder for me to make a tree that looks "natural", but interesting, rather than artificial. Formulas are easier, genuine creativity is much more difficult.

More photos, folks!

Gavin

MJL · Post by **MJL** » March 22nd, 2019, 6:35 pm

I started reading thread late last night. By coincidence, I was reading it after presenting as a guest at the Warragul Bonsai Group. Part of this presentation is sort of related to this thread - I think. It is important to note that I am an amateur and my presentation is about what I have learned as a novice; hoping to pass on some knowledge such that others can learn from my mistakes... so I am hardly qualified to discuss this topic but stuff it, I will anyway.

In my mind it takes great skill, enormous skill and knowledge to make something in a small pot look 'natural' and not contrived - whether native or not. This is why Bonsai is art and not science (except perhaps for the science of Horticulture ...). I reckon it is the imagination and creativity of the artist that matters most but this must be underpinned by a foundation of historical knowledge, technique, forms, styes and species-related horticultural aspects and natural growing environments...not because these topics create "rules" but because they provide inspiration and a strong foundation on which to apply your creativity. Your knowledge helps you realise your creative vision.

In my presentation, I end with this quote. A quote provided to me by someone that I admire greatly in this sport of ours. It reads like this:

"…. the heart of the craft lies in the artisan’s ability to envision clearly what form he/(she) would like the tree to take as a mature bonsai…
The presence or absence of this creativity is what decides whether the grower has true talent in this art." Source: THE MEANING OF BONSAI: TRADITION AND THE JAPANESE ESTHETIC by ŌKUMA Toshiyuki

and then I end with this:

Vision and creativity. That's achievable for us all.
That's why I practice the art of Bonsai.
What drives you?

I end with this because an old, majestic bonsai that has been curated for many generations may not be achievable or realistic for us all. However, what is in our heads, what we enjoy, what inspires is, what help us relax - that is both achievable and good for your health.

So where does that leave me on this excellent thread? It leaves me saying bonsai remains a patient art, the more I rush (which I still often do to the detriment of my trees) - the more contrived things look (in whatever style or form). The more I skip steps - the more my vision and design is weaker for it. That said, I will always look to history for guidance and respect educated views but in the end, I will make my own decisions - and I may break a few 'rules' - if the end result is pleasing to me and hopefully others - I am heading in the right direction. I get inspiration from so many channels - nature itself, books, photo's, this forum, google ... but it is just that, inspiration - my assumption is the genesis of this thread is about inspiration not about replication.

Loving this thread and the diversity of views. Cheers, Mark

Rory · Post by **Rory** » March 22nd, 2019, 7:02 pm

Gavin, you sir a gentleman and have put that together with fine eloquence.

Very well iterated.

melbrackstone · Post by **melbrackstone** » March 22nd, 2019, 9:08 pm

Love this discussion, and look forward to more. I've been a student of trees all my life, and regularly photographed shapes I love.

These are all shot with infrared, so the foliage goes white, but I'm sure you can see the shapes.

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Regarding the leaf mould cover, I could see it being used effectively for display, but wouldn't it, like too much moss, interfere with watering?

wrcmad · Post by **wrcmad** » March 22nd, 2019, 9:28 pm

GavinG wrote: wrcmad: I am not, as I said, after a "photographic replica of nature", or an easy way to justify sloppy bonsai technique. Quite the opposite. It takes excellent technique and fine artistry to make any of the elements I highlighted work as bonsai.

"Complex dense shapes" need not cause dieback, if there is the "see-through" texture in the Euc branch photo, for instance. It's just careful management, as with all bonsai. Neat layering and tight clipping is just lazy habit from pine-tree bonsai, completely out of place with natives.

re ground cover - for God's sake don't go outside! You'll be Appalled by the Neglected Crappy Lazy bush all around you. For mine, matching the ground-cover to the natural habit of the tree is the opposite of lazy.

Fair enough.
I was merely answering your question(s) with my take on them... (thread title).
I don't really want a debate on these opinions, but would point out that there are good reasons why these are Things we don't do much in bonsai.
However, I still reiterate the horticultural benefits of moss coverings.
Cheers.

MJL · Post by **MJL** » March 22nd, 2019, 9:57 pm

Mel your photos are wonderful! I love that first photo. I had to whip outside and take this shot .... I look at this group most evenings from my couch in the lounge room - clearly it is not native nor does it have the density of your magnificent photo but your photo reminded me of this .... Nothing brilliant in bonsai terms but evocative of nature nonetheless and that’s part of the joy.... (to me anyway)

IMG_0267.jpg

Bonsai teaches me patience.
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melbrackstone · Post by **melbrackstone** » March 22nd, 2019, 10:03 pm

Thanks Mark. I can see what you're getting at! Maybe it's something to aim for in the future, for both of us!

Funnily enough, I really hate pom pom trees, and yet the tassie trees do kinda look like that, don't they? Maybe I need to give myself an uppercut and stick to just admiring...

MJL · Post by **MJL** » March 22nd, 2019, 10:17 pm

Much of the beauty of so many of our native trees, particularly in seaside locations but anywhere really, is the gnarly, sinuous nature of the trunk movement ... which in a group setting has chaotic harmony - hmmm ... two words that don’t make sense together but ... do to me! If I can figure a way to get that chaos and harmony together and then top it off in delicate yet ruggedly glazed Australian pot sometime over the next 20 years ... I’ll be a happy unit.

Bonsai teaches me patience.
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LLK · Post by **LLK** » March 23rd, 2019, 7:00 am

"…. the heart of the craft lies in the artisan’s ability to envision clearly what form he/(she) would like the tree to take as a mature bonsai…
The presence or absence of this creativity is what decides whether the grower has true talent in this art." Source: THE MEANING OF BONSAI: TRADITION AND THE JAPANESE ESTHETIC by ŌKUMA Toshiyuki

That means designing a tree in one's mind with the full knowledge of the way it's going to grow and develop, which we can only guess at on the basis of what we know about the species and the circumstances in which it is likely to spend its life. That means that our vision of the mature bonsai has to remain fluid.
Then: we grow and change as our bonsai change. What we envisioned for our tree 10 years ago has most likely evolved (geez, it's to be hoped that it has!) and now our idea of the mature bonsai is different.
Bonsai is a living art: nothing can ever be fixed.

Lisa

Keep Calm and Ramify · March 23rd, 2019, 8:34 am

GavinG wrote:
there are elements in nature that are way more exciting than what we usually see in bonsai.
The more we see and absorb what's out there, the more we can steal and transform. NOT a photographic replica!

More photos, folks!
Gavin

Soil erosion - iconic in the Australian landscape - a glimpse of what's happening below.
Here is the harshness of the

exposed root.

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treeman · Post by **treeman** » March 23rd, 2019, 10:26 am

I'd just like to add these points at this time...

1 Blue Poles in - my mind - is a piece of shite.
2 It's infinitely harder to make a tree look natural than the ''forced by human look'' and this is because....
3 Trees know how to make branches and we don't.

GavinG · Post by **GavinG** » March 23rd, 2019, 2:16 pm

Thank you for the further discussion.

MJL: the Okuma quote "envision clearly" is quite different to what happens in my yard. I do my thing, then the tree does its thing. Repeat for 5 or 10 years, and you have something interesting that doesn't look designed, but has all the boring bits cut out along the way. I don't design, but I do exploit without mercy whatever the tree offers, in its own language. Grow and Clip. Like what mike/treeman says, trees know how to make branches. It's certainly not the only way to go, but things can get interesting...

Rory: I'm no damn gentleman. Wash your mouth, Sir! Beer when you turn up.

Mel: I really want to see what you come up with, to interpret those photos as bonsai scenes. They are not pom-pom trees, if you look at the complex and subtle shapes of the trunks. Like what MJL said: "gnarly sinuous nature".

KCaR: Keep 'em coming! Great lines and dynamic energy.

This is my only leaf-litter ground cover so far, on a garden-dug Callistemon. Not tidy, but bush isn't. No problems with watering.

P1010664.jpg

Maybe I'm not looking for "natural", more "interesting". Making every detail worth looking at.

Gavin

MJL · Post by **MJL** » March 23rd, 2019, 3:51 pm

Cheers Gavin ... ‘things can get interesting’ ... I know your talking about your approach to Bonsai but I reckon things might get interesting when you and Rory get together for a tasty beverage.

I will only add one more thing and then politely exit this thread and let knowledgeable folk be knowledgeable.

When I think vision and creativity - I am really trying to give myself a practical basis for decisions moving forward - otherwise I seem to get lost - maybe experience will help me navigate a more random path in future. Currently, my creative ideas are inspired by the tree or trees that I am using as stock. It’s not a fixed design per se - and hey, as in life - plans change. The trees will do what the trees will do and that may mandate an evolution of any vision I may have had in times past.

Cheers again for the thread. Very thought provoking. [THUMBS UP SIGN]

Bonsai teaches me patience.
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anthonyW · Post by **anthonyW** » March 24th, 2019, 8:46 pm

Keep trying, you might convince some with your natural BS...

Best let our work/trees speak not our mouths...your like broken record mate...play again Sam

AusBonsai