Hard water help!

[Mickeyjaytee]

Hi everyone!

Brand new to the forums and have just started bonsai. Really excited to be here and am enjoying bonsai thoroughly. On to the question!

I live in Perth and my tap water is super hard. So much so I lost 3 azaleas and my potted Japanese maple is just so sick every year from the tap water. I’m wondering if anyone can suggest what I can do?

I know a rainwater tank is ideal but, I do not have the space! So far I’ve resorted to using a Brita water filter jug for my Japanese maple and satsuki azaleas however, I hear that this does not remove calcium/lime which seems to be the killer. Would this filtered water still help?

I know distilled water contains no nutrients but, is it possible to use that and add nutrients to the water and if so what should I add?

I’m very new and I love bonsai specifically Japanese maples and satsuki azaleas yet, I’m worried they will get sick again this summer with the water and eventually die. My Japanese maple thrived in Perth when I had access to a rainwater tank but now, it loses its leaves very early in summer and is just so unwell.

Any help would be so thoroughly appreciated!

[treeman]

You're probably picking the wrong kinds of plants for your area (you should be growing some of the rare and beautiful plants from there) but if you want to grow azaleas you will need to do the following...

Learn how to measure pH of both water and soil. An indicator liquid for aquariums is good enough for the water. For the soil, you can use a test kit. Manutec has one)

Next you need to find a source of an acidic medium like peat and un-limed pine bark (or composted Jarrah bark WA?)

Then you need a set of sieves so you can screen the dust out of it and use 2 to 5mm particles.

Then you need to find a source of a mineral like non-alkaline quartz sand/gravel or similar or you might be able to get imported kanuma.

About 1/3 each of bark sand and peat is a good starting point. Drainage must be excellent but water holding capacity is very important as well.

Then you will need to adjust the pH of your chosen potting mix to between 4 and 5. (for Rhododendron species) 6.5 is plenty for maples.

You do this with peat added to bark or kanuma or sand or a combination. Check pH as you go and use a slightly moist p/mix when testing.

You can also use dusting sulphur at the rate of 1/3 of a gram per litre of mix for every unit of pH you want to bring down. (you must be quite precise)

The peat will give you a high buffering capacity against the alkaline water but there is a limit. You need to check every month or two until you know what is happening in the pot.

If the peat and/or the sulphur still don't do the job, you will need to acidify all the water you use with citric, nitric or sulphuric acid in a tank and use that for watering. You do this with an eye dropper and stir and check and repeat. Once you know the quantity of acid it is easy from then on but you always have to check.

Contact you local water supplier for a spec sheet of the water, total alkalinity, pH etc. That can help with your adjustments. If it has a high chloride content, just give up and grow something else.

The fertilizer you use also comes into the picture. Basically ammonium - especially ammonium sulphate - is the most acidifying form of nitrogen. Try to use a fertilizer with that in it rather than nitrate. Urea turns into ammonium so that is also acidifying.

Then ( ) you will need to learn how to root prune, pot and treat them as the perfect soil conditions will lead to nothing if you miss watering or etc.

Remember that Rhodos and azaleas do not need much phosphorus and only need about 1/3 to 1/2 the fertilizer you would give to most other plants.
Don't just assume you have it all under control for at least one full year. Grow a few azaleas in plastic pots so you can easily knock them out and check the pH at the bottom of the root ball.

[treeman]

You're probably picking the wrong kinds of plants for your area (you should be growing some of the rare and beautiful plants from there) but if you want to grow azaleas you will need to do the following...

Learn how to measure pH of both water and soil. An indicator liquid for aquariums is good enough for the water. For the soil, you can use a test kit. Manutec has one)

Next you need to find a source of an acidic medium like peat and un-limed pine bark (or composted Jarrah bark WA?)

Then you need a set of sieves so you can screen the dust out of it and use 2 to 5mm particles.

Then you need to find a source of a mineral like non-alkaline quartz sand/gravel or similar or you might be able to get imported kanuma.

About 1/3 each of bark sand and peat is a good starting point. Drainage must be excellent but water holding capacity is very important as well.

Then you will need to adjust the pH of your chosen potting mix to between 4 and 5. (for Rhododendron species) 6.5 is plenty for maples.

You do this with peat added to bark or kanuma or sand or a combination. Check pH as you go and use a slightly moist p/mix when testing.

You can also use dusting sulphur at the rate of 1/3 of a gram per litre of mix for every unit of pH you want to bring down. (you must be quite precise)

The peat will give you a high buffering capacity against the alkaline water but there is a limit. You need to check every month or two until you know what is happening in the pot.

If the peat and/or the sulphur still don't do the job, you will need to acidify all the water you use with citric, nitric or sulphuric acid in a tank and use that for watering. You do this with an eye dropper and stir and check and repeat. Once you know the quantity of acid it is easy from then on but you always have to check.

Contact you local water supplier for a spec sheet of the water, total alkalinity, pH etc. That can help with your adjustments. If it has a high chloride content, just give up and grow something else.

The fertilizer you use also comes into the picture. Basically ammonium - especially ammonium sulphate - is the most acidifying form of nitrogen. Try to use a fertilizer with that in it rather than nitrate. Urea turns into ammonium so that is also acidifying.

Then ( ) you will need to learn how to root prune, pot and treat them as the perfect soil conditions will lead to nothing if you miss watering or etc.

Remember that Rhodos and azaleas do not need much phosphorus and only need about 1/3 to 1/2 the fertilizer you would give to most other plants.
Don't just assume you have it all under control for at least one full year. Grow a few azaleas in plastic pots so you can easily knock them out and check the pH at the bottom of the root ball.

Oops, double post...

[TimS]

You're probably picking the wrong kinds of plants for your area (you should be growing some of the rare and beautiful plants from there) but if you want to grow azaleas you will need to do the following...

Learn how to measure pH of both water and soil. An indicator liquid for aquariums is good enough for the water. For the soil, you can use a test kit. Manutec has one)

Next you need to find a source of an acidic medium like peat and un-limed pine bark (or composted Jarrah bark WA?)

Then you need a set of sieves so you can screen the dust out of it and use 2 to 5mm particles.

Then you need to find a source of a mineral like non-alkaline quartz sand/gravel or similar or you might be able to get imported kanuma.

About 1/3 each of bark sand and peat is a good starting point. Drainage must be excellent but water holding capacity is very important as well.

Then you will need to adjust the pH of your chosen potting mix to between 4 and 5. (for Rhododendron species) 6.5 is plenty for maples.

You do this with peat added to bark or kanuma or sand or a combination. Check pH as you go and use a slightly moist p/mix when testing.

You can also use dusting sulphur at the rate of 1/3 of a gram per litre of mix for every unit of pH you want to bring down. (you must be quite precise)

The peat will give you a high buffering capacity against the alkaline water but there is a limit. You need to check every month or two until you know what is happening in the pot.

If the peat and/or the sulphur still don't do the job, you will need to acidify all the water you use with citric, nitric or sulphuric acid in a tank and use that for watering. You do this with an eye dropper and stir and check and repeat. Once you know the quantity of acid it is easy from then on but you always have to check.

Contact you local water supplier for a spec sheet of the water, total alkalinity, pH etc. That can help with your adjustments. If it has a high chloride content, just give up and grow something else.

The fertilizer you use also comes into the picture. Basically ammonium - especially ammonium sulphate - is the most acidifying form of nitrogen. Try to use a fertilizer with that in it rather than nitrate. Urea turns into ammonium so that is also acidifying.

Then ( ) you will need to learn how to root prune, pot and treat them as the perfect soil conditions will lead to nothing if you miss watering or etc.

Remember that Rhodos and azaleas do not need much phosphorus and only need about 1/3 to 1/2 the fertilizer you would give to most other plants.
Don't just assume you have it all under control for at least one full year. Grow a few azaleas in plastic pots so you can easily knock them out and check the pH at the bottom of the root ball.

Simple as that hey

[shibui]

It is always easier to blame something else for any failures so first we need to make sure that the water is the issue here. Azaleas are not easy to maintain at the best of times and JM can be a big problem for many people and not because of water.
Most municipal water supplies are treated to bring the water within guidelines so I'm surprised to hear that water is causing such problems.

What makes you think that the water is the problem for your plants? What testing have you done so far?

I checked the water reports for Perth water supply districts. Looks like the only areas of Perth region with real hard water is far northern around Yanchep and, even there, the alkalinity is adjusted to bring it within guidelines.
My understanding is that it is pH (alkalinity) that causes problems for acid loving species rather than the Ca levels. Lots of American growers manage to grow azaleas with the help of acidifying fertilisers so that could be a help if it turns out that pH is the real issue here.

[Mickeyjaytee]

It is always easier to blame something else for any failures so first we need to make sure that the water is the issue here. Azaleas are not easy to maintain at the best of times and JM can be a big problem for many people and not because of water.
Most municipal water supplies are treated to bring the water within guidelines so I'm surprised to hear that water is causing such problems.

What makes you think that the water is the problem for your plants? What testing have you done so far?

I checked the water reports for Perth water supply districts. Looks like the only areas of Perth region with real hard water is far northern around Yanchep and, even there, the alkalinity is adjusted to bring it within guidelines.
My understanding is that it is pH (alkalinity) that causes problems for acid loving species rather than the Ca levels. Lots of American growers manage to grow azaleas with the help of acidifying fertilisers so that could be a help if it turns out that pH is the real issue here.

Thanks for the reply! I assume it’s the water for a couple of reasons. Limescale build up happens a lot at home. I’m forever cleaning the shower. When washing the car the amount of white specks it leaves is just crazy.

I used proper azalea soil with peat hay in pots and, planted some in a very shaded area in the ground also. The plants flourished. Once it heated up I had to switch to tap water the decline began. The leaves slowly turn brown and die towards the start of the leaf followed by the branch. The ones in the pots just slowly got more and more sick however, the ground azaleas who didn’t get much tap water seemed to be ok.

Once the cooler weather came back and the rains started they completely bounced back and instead of slowly dying off, they started new growth and have even flowered this year!

As for the maple. When I lived elsewhere it absolutely flourished every summer and was beautiful. It only received rain water. Since moving to the city it hasn’t even come close to looking good.

Another thing I have noticed is that I have an English oak and alder tree in the ground. Wherever the sprinkler water hits, the leaves slowly die and look horrid.

I really think it is the water but, I could be wrong! We do have a running joke in Perth about how the water is bad!

Open to any suggestions and help!

[shibui]

Almost everybody believes their municipal water is the worst in the world
We love to be able to blame someone else for any problems and faceless organisations are the easiest to pick on. Truth is that water suppliers are bound to provide water that meets minimum requirements. You can access annual reports online for any water supply in Australia to check the test reports.
The circumstantial evidence does seem to point toward water but there's some overlap with time of year, weather, etc so still not proven.

Not sure if there's any ways to overcome water except to store and use rainwater.
Reverse osmosis is an option used on some houses but it is expensive and slow and has other issues for garden watering.
Distilled water can be used but it will be very expensive. Any missing minerals should be made available with any good fertiliser including trace elements.

Treeman's recommendation to grow plants suited to the area is the easiest and most sensible solution.

[treeman]

I really think it is the water but, I could be wrong! We do have a running joke in Perth about how the water is bad!

Open to any suggestions and help!

[Daluke]

Could be 5G?

[BonsaiBobbie]

Move to the East Coast?

[Paulneill]

I live in Perth and just visited a large azalea nursery and there trees are super healthy.
So did you repot these trees after u got them? I have to think it’s something you are doing over watering maybe. U said u used straw for potting medium?

[Mickeyjaytee]

I live in Perth and just visited a large azalea nursery and there trees are super healthy.
So did you repot these trees after u got them? I have to think it’s something you are doing over watering maybe. U said u used straw for potting medium?

Thanks for the reply Paul! Yeah I’ve seen some magnificent azaleas in Perth myself. Dawsons garden world had absolutely huge azaleas flowering like mad.

I did repot after I got them with an azalea mix and was also told to use a peat moss for compost/mulch as it’s acidic when breaking down.

I may have found the culprit though! So, we have an evaporative air conditioner which we collect the excess water. My house mate informed me that he had been putting it on the azaleas (which I specifically said not to). The Japanese maple was near the azaleas so I’m going to assume he put it on it too.

Apparently the excess water from an evaporative aircon is excessively high in mineral salts so hopefully that was the issue.

Let’s just say, butts were kicked when he told me

As a side note on people saying stick to what’s native! My whole garden is native with a focus on west Australian natives and I have many native pre bonsai in the making. I just have a soft spot for the beauty of satsuki and Japanese maples! Some of the replies were unhelpful and uncalled for. Geez. Help a beginner out!

[KIRKY]

Well it’s good you may have found a solution to your problem, evap water is definitely a no for all plants. As your into Satsuki Azaleas your in luck as WA has a great Satsuki club founded by Arthur Robinson. Just has a quick look for the details of the club it now looks like they are under the Bonsai Society of Western Australia. Should you have any other issues suggest you get in contact with them as I’m sure they would be more than willing to assist you. Nothing beats local knowledge.
Cheers
Kirky

[shibui]

Glad to hear the tap water is (provisionally) off the hook. As mentioned, most tap water in Australia should be fine for plants.
I'll be interested to see what happens with just tap water now so keep us informed as summer progresses.
Excess water from evap aircon will obviously be really high in whatever minerals are in the original water - only water evaporates leaving concentrated solution of minerals - so could easily be toxic to plants.

Good luck with the azaleas and maple.

[Mickeyjaytee]

Thank you both for the replies! I really appreciate it! I will definitely get in touch with the club! I’ll also keep you informed on how I go through summer! I have 2 new bonsais and this will be my first summer with them so I’m a tad worried especially when the weather hits 40+.

Instead of making a new post perhaps you guys could help me out with what to do specifically with sun and a Perth summer. Obviously watering 2-3 times a day would be essential but, I’m curious about the sun loving bonsai species. When the temperature reaches say 38+ do I need to place them under shade cloth and will that be enough light for them? My initial concern is that if I have them in the sun the pot would heat up and I worry about root damage. Is this a thing?

Would perhaps just morning sun til lunch be appropriate to keep them healthy?

Complete beginner as I said and it’s hard to find info about Perth. A lot is about the eastern states which don’t really have those dry hot days with the exception of Adelaide. Protection against the easterly winds concerns me too specifically with the maple. I do have a spot but, it’s complete shade and I find even in shade 40 degrees just cooks it’s fragile leaves.

I’m nervous but, really excited about raising my bonsai.

Thank you again for any help!