Live vein explanation

[Stevie_B]

Good evening all,

I am interested in shari and carving some of my trees, but am unsure about understanding the live vein concept and how it relates to bonsai.

As I understand it, the vein basically runs from the main branch down the trunk to the biggest root below it. So If it is cut, then I assume the branch dies. If so, how do the greats get the shari to run around the trunk?

I’m obviously talking about junipers, but am also interested in bougies and natives such as calistemons as well maybe.

Thanks all,
Steve

[BonsaiBobbie]

I am glad someone else asked this question! I’ve not understood it at all!

In fact I’ve just learnt something from the question!

[alpineart]

Hi Steve , mate a live vein represents a live section of a trunk that feeds the upper section , be it a branch or an entire canopy .It doesn't necessarily have to come from the biggest root it can be from numerous parts of the base of the trunk .A large root simple continues the movement/ flow from trunk to ground
A lot of material has straight vertical growth patterns so the easiest way to do a live vein is to have it vertical with subtle movement .
Some junipers you refer to have spiral contorted growth so a spiral live vein is used because it simply follows the movement of the natural trunk and branches .
Straight trunked growth can be made to have a spiral live vein , it is done either in sections over time by removing sections of the bark , say in 1 season and then removing other sections to join up the previously removed bark until you have a completed live vein or be it deadwood section .
This doesn't always work , joining up the removed sections can sever the sap flow and kill the upper section or part there of .

Try this , With a straight branch off a garden tree that has flexible movement eg like a willow , conifer etc , .

Remove a vertical sliver of bark say 5mm wide or simply draw a thick marker line up the branch .
Now , wired it , then simply contort , rotate , and twist the branch and watch the straight section or line drawn on the branch appear to be contorted around the branch .
The sap flow is still flowing straight but the branch is rotating and contorted .
You can rotate a small juniper 360 degree when very young by doing this you can carve a section out to follow that rotation without to much risk of killing the upper section .
If you were to carve a straight juniper or any tree in a full rotation first up you will most likely kill the tree or sections of the upper canopy as the sap flow will be compromised .
Any carving or live vein work takes time , practice on collected branches , not good trees and remember you haven't learnt anything unless you have killed a few tree's

Hopefully this info makes sense and helps .

Cheers Ian

[Stevie_B]

Thanks Ian,
That explains a whole lot. I see on Facebook people who have created a shari on smaller plants and wonder if they will make it.
I like the idea of practicing first, . I’ m off to kill some trees.
Thanks,
Steve

[shibui]

Younger trees do not have defined live veins but as they age there tends to be a more and more direct link between branches and the roots directly below. That still doesn't stop us making shari across the flow but you need to take some time to allow the tree to change sap paths. With younger trees just go ahead and cut shari wherever you want though you do need to make sure there is a bark path from every branch to the base of the tree. I've seen beginners cut bark in all directions and wonder why the upper branches died but when you check there's no connection from the dead branches to the roots.

I've carved spirals into a number of junipers and never had a problem.
I did lose the top of one juniper after expanding the shari and afterwards discovered there was a damaged section hidden under the bark from previous wiring.

P1210680.JPG

And this is the one where the top died

P1210678.JPG

Hidden under the bark in that middle section is a dead spot where the cambium has previously been damaged but the bark has not yet fallen off. A more observant person may have noticed the signs but I didn't look close.

IMGP0052.JPG

In hindsight the top was too tall anyway so the tree is probably better after.

[Stevie_B]

I see what you mean.
Thanks Legends

[Sno]

It’s worth bearing in mind that live veins run both ways . Sometimes removing branches can result in roots dying off .
Here’s an example on a Callistemon.

57D21D20-AF02-478B-A45A-2CF20C640F1B.jpeg

This branch was removed flush to the trunk which killed off the root below it .

C4360506-EDED-41CD-97DB-A04FEA7ED87C.jpeg

You can see where the root connects to the branch . This is a sacrifice branch that was 1 1/2 m long .

1F3B15C1-491C-4F9A-B807-E81BB4189FCD.jpeg

I have reduced the branch without totally removing ,which I will do in stages .Hopefully this will train the root to feed another area .

[Stevie_B]

I see what you mean Sno, and that makes it clearer again. Pity about the branch tho.
I realised that i had thought of a vein in terms of human anatomy, in that each one existing on its own independently of the others, but it seems that is not the case. I guess once established and the tree matures, it may become more like that, as the branches and roots have that unique connection.
It is making more sense now. Maybe.
Thank you,
Steve

[shibui]

I'm imagining sap transport system more like the water pipes or electricity grid in a city. There are larger pipes/wires leading to areas of higher demand and smaller pipes/wires connecting streets and houses but the pipes/wiresd are connected in a grid with many interconnections so if one pipe/wire breaks you can still get water/electricity through connections from the other end of the street or from another main supply line.

The difference is that tree sap system is flexible. Supply lines can expand when required to deliver more sap or grow new connections to adjoining pipes to get additional supply to a location that requires it. That makes it possible to cut through some lines and still get supply from nearby lines. Slow reduction allows new pathways to develop and smaller pipelines to expand to meet the needs.
Sudden major cuts can cause loss of branch (or root) if the tree cannot make new connections in time.

[Stevie_B]

This is making a lot more sense to me now. Thank you

[Phil Rabl]

The internal workings of trees are complex, including the way they move water/sap/nutrients up and down and around and around. And it varies from genus to genus. You might find it interesting to read the article titled "How do large trees, such as redwoods, get water from their roots to the leaves?" in the Scientific American. https://www.scientificamerican.com/arti ... -to-friend.

Given the question that started this thread, note the part of the article that covers the major differences between hardwoods (oak, ash, maple) and conifers (redwood, pine, spruce, fir) in the structure of xylem. And be prepared to come away with more questions.

[Kevin]

Hello All,

These photos were posted some time ago in the "Inspiration from Nature" Forum. I thought it appropriate to resurface them again here, as they are great examples of "live vein".

Eucalyptus live vein.jpg

Eucalyptus live vein 1.jpg

eucalyptus live vein 2.jpg

Kevin