Eucalyptus, again
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Eucalyptus, again
Mike expressed concern about Eucs as bonsai when commenting on Sno's E. rubida - great trunk in the bark, but as Sno will admit, he's still very much feeling his way with branching and shaping. As are most of us with Eucs. The Euc masterpieces to my mind are Ted Poynton's A. costata at the NBPCA, PeterH's E. nicholli and DennisMc's A. floribunda - they exist, but they are rare.
Mike's problems with Eucs seems to be that they are not "amenable to training", that you can't "form branches with total control", and expect to get shoots from where you cut a branch back to. While you won't get the dense pads you get with junipers, they are no more "uncontrollable" than, for existence Prunus species - we grow them for what they are, not because we can make "proper bonsai" (=juniper, pine) out of them.
Here are some species that may be useful to consider. Some have short internodes and shoot reliably from where you cut them. All of them have great new-shoot colours, stem colours, trunks and roots that make them exceptional candidates for bonsai. Without wishing to be jingoistic, until we make sense of our own native trees, in bonsai terms, we're condemned to be second-rate Europeans, third-rate Americans, or fourth-rate Japanese.
E. botryoides (or maybe robusta...) Swamp mahogany: short internodes, reliable reshooting, superb shoot colour and good bark texture early.
Your only problem is choosing which shoots you want to keep.
E.scoparia, (Steven posted a good example some years back): shoots back where you cut it, sometimes with long internodes - there are so many shoots, you just choose the one with the leaves closest in.
And it has great texture at the base like a giant squid.
E. punctata can shoot long, but there are usually some close-leaved shoots somewhere you can cut back to. Very robust and quick-thickening - it won't form dense pads, neither it should. Euc's are often see-through in the wild.
Just a random set of shoots - can cut back to any leaf and it will shoot from the base, just as you expect.
More in a few minutes.
Gavin
Mike's problems with Eucs seems to be that they are not "amenable to training", that you can't "form branches with total control", and expect to get shoots from where you cut a branch back to. While you won't get the dense pads you get with junipers, they are no more "uncontrollable" than, for existence Prunus species - we grow them for what they are, not because we can make "proper bonsai" (=juniper, pine) out of them.
Here are some species that may be useful to consider. Some have short internodes and shoot reliably from where you cut them. All of them have great new-shoot colours, stem colours, trunks and roots that make them exceptional candidates for bonsai. Without wishing to be jingoistic, until we make sense of our own native trees, in bonsai terms, we're condemned to be second-rate Europeans, third-rate Americans, or fourth-rate Japanese.
E. botryoides (or maybe robusta...) Swamp mahogany: short internodes, reliable reshooting, superb shoot colour and good bark texture early.
Your only problem is choosing which shoots you want to keep.
E.scoparia, (Steven posted a good example some years back): shoots back where you cut it, sometimes with long internodes - there are so many shoots, you just choose the one with the leaves closest in.
And it has great texture at the base like a giant squid.
E. punctata can shoot long, but there are usually some close-leaved shoots somewhere you can cut back to. Very robust and quick-thickening - it won't form dense pads, neither it should. Euc's are often see-through in the wild.
Just a random set of shoots - can cut back to any leaf and it will shoot from the base, just as you expect.
More in a few minutes.
Gavin
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Last edited by GavinG on December 30th, 2017, 2:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
These are the young shoots of E. crenulata.
They shoot prolifically and reliably, the leaves are very small, and you just need to select what you want.
Good trunk texture even at four years old. Not as fast to thicken as, frinstance, E. punctata, but should make very good thick little shohin. Does not seem to be top-dominant, like many Eucs.
Anyone in Victoria or the ACT who isn't growing half a dozen of these is crazy, in my opinion. They're everything you could want.
This one is a bit of a rarity - E. orbifolia. In the wild it has dramatic vertically-furrowed "mini-richi" bark. Not sure whether this will happen in a pot. Shoots densely, with beautiful detail. Might be slow to thicken - we will see. Interesting texture when still quite young: This might be E. cinerea, or rubida (yep, another lost plant tag...) Plentiful, beautifully detailed shoots, where you want them.
Good bark early.
Obviously, get rid of basal shoots early or the branch will die off.
There are a lot of Euc. species that aren't top-dominant, that shoot reliably, and don't shoot with ridiculously long internodes - and there are quite a lot that do, and won't make good bonsai. The shapes and textures that suit these natives we are only just starting to work out. The fact that there are few "masterpieces" so far is no reason to give up on the genus. We've barely scratched the surface.
And all these species have survived my "tender loving care" - they're as tough as you'd want.
Gavin
They shoot prolifically and reliably, the leaves are very small, and you just need to select what you want.
Good trunk texture even at four years old. Not as fast to thicken as, frinstance, E. punctata, but should make very good thick little shohin. Does not seem to be top-dominant, like many Eucs.
Anyone in Victoria or the ACT who isn't growing half a dozen of these is crazy, in my opinion. They're everything you could want.
This one is a bit of a rarity - E. orbifolia. In the wild it has dramatic vertically-furrowed "mini-richi" bark. Not sure whether this will happen in a pot. Shoots densely, with beautiful detail. Might be slow to thicken - we will see. Interesting texture when still quite young: This might be E. cinerea, or rubida (yep, another lost plant tag...) Plentiful, beautifully detailed shoots, where you want them.
Good bark early.
Obviously, get rid of basal shoots early or the branch will die off.
There are a lot of Euc. species that aren't top-dominant, that shoot reliably, and don't shoot with ridiculously long internodes - and there are quite a lot that do, and won't make good bonsai. The shapes and textures that suit these natives we are only just starting to work out. The fact that there are few "masterpieces" so far is no reason to give up on the genus. We've barely scratched the surface.
And all these species have survived my "tender loving care" - they're as tough as you'd want.
Gavin
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Last edited by GavinG on December 30th, 2017, 3:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
Thanks for the post, very interesting,
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
Sorry Gavin,
I'm struggling to see trees - I only see close ups of pretty foliage & saplings. I'm just not convinced that the true beauty & awe of a really aged Eucalyptus can be captured in miniature..... Shoot me now
I'm struggling to see trees - I only see close ups of pretty foliage & saplings. I'm just not convinced that the true beauty & awe of a really aged Eucalyptus can be captured in miniature..... Shoot me now
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
Hey Gavin, are these some of the trees that you are referencing?
httpss://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/view ... =6&t=11335
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/~ausbonsa/f ... 6&start=30
Great trees!
I agree with you that there certainly are great examples of Gums out there along with a few others, in fact it was browsing images of Eucs and other Aussie natives that lead me to bonsai, they can have a very naturalistic shape to them that remind me of home. Pines and Junipers just don't speak to me like a gum does so hopefully one day I can have a few on my benches.
My problem is although gums are declared a weed here and they routinely spray them it is still illegal to collect so I have to start from seed which is a long process but I should have a few ready for their first cut back this summer and I have just received another seed order ready to sow in a month or so.
There is so much variation between the species' too, I love them.
Each to their own though, I like figs too.
httpss://www.ausbonsai.com.au/forum/view ... =6&t=11335
https://www.ausbonsai.com.au/~ausbonsa/f ... 6&start=30
Great trees!
I agree with you that there certainly are great examples of Gums out there along with a few others, in fact it was browsing images of Eucs and other Aussie natives that lead me to bonsai, they can have a very naturalistic shape to them that remind me of home. Pines and Junipers just don't speak to me like a gum does so hopefully one day I can have a few on my benches.
My problem is although gums are declared a weed here and they routinely spray them it is still illegal to collect so I have to start from seed which is a long process but I should have a few ready for their first cut back this summer and I have just received another seed order ready to sow in a month or so.
There is so much variation between the species' too, I love them.
Each to their own though, I like figs too.
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
Thanks Gavin,
Great information ,the more we try the natives the better Bonsai in Australia will be. Cheers John.
Great information ,the more we try the natives the better Bonsai in Australia will be. Cheers John.
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
Great effort Gavin Takes awhile to photograph and post this info. Agnosis flexuosa could also be included in this lot
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
until we make sense of our own native trees, in bonsai terms, we're condemned to be second-rate Europeans, third-rate Americans, or fourth-rate Japanese.
Quite agree. I can't walk out my back door and see truly ancient pines and elms, but I can sit under an enormous gum that pre-dates colonisation. Eucalyptus can make magnificent bonsai, but we need to understand the form and techniques better.
Over here in Adelaide Chris Drinkwater has some lovely examples. I'll try and get some photos. My own modest efforts include River Red gum (E. camaldulensis) and Swamp gum (E. ovata subsp. ovata)
Matt.
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
Good post Gavin.
You can also include E. melliodora and E. maculata to the list.
The thing that we need to always remember is that the Chinese and Japanese have a rich history, over 1,000 years, growing their native trees as bonsai and have discovered and developed the techniques which work for the various classic varieties like maples, pines, junipers, elms etc. We have a "rich history" of a little over 40 years so we have only just scratched the surface of developing techniques to grow Eucalyptus as bonsai. Additionally there are over 800 species to trial and it is fair to say that we are have only just started to learn which techniques work with which species not to mention which species can be grown as bonsai.
Here's another way of looking at it. If the Japanese have 500 black pines of gold medal quality bonsai after 1,000 years and we a half a dozen eucalyptus after 40 years then we are definitely headed in the right direction. As we discover what works, then we can expect to see a big increase in quality Eucs being grown as we discover and teach people how to grow them successfully.
You can also include E. melliodora and E. maculata to the list.
The thing that we need to always remember is that the Chinese and Japanese have a rich history, over 1,000 years, growing their native trees as bonsai and have discovered and developed the techniques which work for the various classic varieties like maples, pines, junipers, elms etc. We have a "rich history" of a little over 40 years so we have only just scratched the surface of developing techniques to grow Eucalyptus as bonsai. Additionally there are over 800 species to trial and it is fair to say that we are have only just started to learn which techniques work with which species not to mention which species can be grown as bonsai.
Here's another way of looking at it. If the Japanese have 500 black pines of gold medal quality bonsai after 1,000 years and we a half a dozen eucalyptus after 40 years then we are definitely headed in the right direction. As we discover what works, then we can expect to see a big increase in quality Eucs being grown as we discover and teach people how to grow them successfully.
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
Thanks for that info Gavin.
I love the many challenges of Eucalypts. By combining Bonsai and Penjing I try to recreate what I consider a naturlistic style in Eucalypts, as they don't look good as a Japanese pine. I think most Australian Bonsaiests are not up for the challenge, and are happy to stay with the traditional Japanese tried and proven ways.
Each to his own. Hopefully I will achieve more with this species in the coming years.
Kind Regards,
Peter
I love the many challenges of Eucalypts. By combining Bonsai and Penjing I try to recreate what I consider a naturlistic style in Eucalypts, as they don't look good as a Japanese pine. I think most Australian Bonsaiests are not up for the challenge, and are happy to stay with the traditional Japanese tried and proven ways.
Each to his own. Hopefully I will achieve more with this species in the coming years.
Kind Regards,
Peter
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
Well I'll be ... Had a couple of drinks, went for a nap, and now there's a whole damn different New Year to contend with! I haven't sorted out the last one yet... May you be content with what you do and who you're with.
Thanks for the thoughts folks.
KCaR: I was not posting trees, I just wanted to address treeman's specific concerns about branching, structure and Eucs in detail. (You know, ramifying.) Some Eucs misbehave as he suggested, many others don't. See Starfox's links for trees that might convince you.
Starfox: thanks for the links. Are all Eucs declared as weeds? Or just those that take over? You might find something small-leafed and not too feral that's legal. Good luck.
Bodhi: I think A. flexuosa should be ground-grown by the hundreds - you certainly need to work them early to get the trunk to do anything interesting. Good tree (but not a Euc! Do you know that chooks will destroy everything they can see, but they won't eat Eucs?)
MattS: I definitely want to see your Eucs, and Chris's if it's possible. For me, Euc. trunks are relatively easy to grow, but branching and foliage is where things get complicated. It isn't easy to reflect wild trees in our bonsai, but I'm not sure I've seen all that many junipers in the wild that have a flat lazy-S trunk, nice horizontal branches neatly arranged, and clumps of poodle-clipped foliage - we often don't expect our Northern hemisphere bonsai to look the way they do in the wild... Odd double standards.
EdwardH: I just need another 150 years, I'm not asking for a lot.
PeterH: "Each to his own" -NO! You're Australian, grow your own damn trees. I know I don't need to convince you.
And I'm going to keep nagging until there are as many Eucs as Junis on this site....
Gavin
Thanks for the thoughts folks.
KCaR: I was not posting trees, I just wanted to address treeman's specific concerns about branching, structure and Eucs in detail. (You know, ramifying.) Some Eucs misbehave as he suggested, many others don't. See Starfox's links for trees that might convince you.
Starfox: thanks for the links. Are all Eucs declared as weeds? Or just those that take over? You might find something small-leafed and not too feral that's legal. Good luck.
Bodhi: I think A. flexuosa should be ground-grown by the hundreds - you certainly need to work them early to get the trunk to do anything interesting. Good tree (but not a Euc! Do you know that chooks will destroy everything they can see, but they won't eat Eucs?)
MattS: I definitely want to see your Eucs, and Chris's if it's possible. For me, Euc. trunks are relatively easy to grow, but branching and foliage is where things get complicated. It isn't easy to reflect wild trees in our bonsai, but I'm not sure I've seen all that many junipers in the wild that have a flat lazy-S trunk, nice horizontal branches neatly arranged, and clumps of poodle-clipped foliage - we often don't expect our Northern hemisphere bonsai to look the way they do in the wild... Odd double standards.
EdwardH: I just need another 150 years, I'm not asking for a lot.
PeterH: "Each to his own" -NO! You're Australian, grow your own damn trees. I know I don't need to convince you.
And I'm going to keep nagging until there are as many Eucs as Junis on this site....
Gavin
Last edited by GavinG on January 1st, 2018, 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
Gavin, you have shamed me into posting one of mine. This was dug in Canberra a few years ago and my initial thought was to grow a sort of literati style, but the foliage gets a bit too big, but I am working on it.
I don't know for sure which species it is, but I suspect Eucalyptus camphora.
PS - the blue background does not suit the leaf colour.
I don't know for sure which species it is, but I suspect Eucalyptus camphora.
PS - the blue background does not suit the leaf colour.
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
Great thread Gavin, I to am very interested in eucalypts and agree they have massive potential. I also agree with the statements that we need to continue to develop our knowledge on these species in order to make Australian bonsai truly special.
Down here in tassie so far I am having success with Tassie snow gum E. coccifera as well as E. veronicas Varnished gum which both of which are very responsive to bonsai technique. I am also trialling a gum top stringy bark e. delagetensis which has very nice foliage but seems to have the issue of dropping branches from the design.
Will Fletcher our Tassie native expert has some very nice specimens developing of all the aforementioned specimens as well as E.pulchella which looks to have great potential.
Down here in tassie so far I am having success with Tassie snow gum E. coccifera as well as E. veronicas Varnished gum which both of which are very responsive to bonsai technique. I am also trialling a gum top stringy bark e. delagetensis which has very nice foliage but seems to have the issue of dropping branches from the design.
Will Fletcher our Tassie native expert has some very nice specimens developing of all the aforementioned specimens as well as E.pulchella which looks to have great potential.
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
GavinG wrote: Starfox: thanks for the links. Are all Eucs declared as weeds? Or just those that take over? You might find something small-leafed and not too feral that's legal. Good luck.
According to the list I have seen it is just E. globulus and E. camaldulensis plus there are 4 Wattles on the list too. It is not so much that they are weeds and you can't have one, they are readily available as 2meter high bean pole stock it's more you cannot collect anything interesting at all whether it is a weed, local native or anything in between and even on private property you are technically supposed to get a license to remove anything(some dude in Madrid just got fined 100 thousand euro for exactly that).
There are a number of species available that I have seen but like I said it is bean pole stuff so you can either spend years chasing them back or probably the same time from seed. I'm also reasonably confident that I do have some Euc seeds that may not even be in Spain at all so that is my main goal this spring to try and get a bunch of different ones up and take my time with them.
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Re: Eucalyptus, again
As requested, here are a couple of my Eucalyptus trees.
This one is a River Red Gum that I grew from seed about 12 years ago. This was originally grown in a less naturalistic style which is why is has a single curved trunk (like a deciduous tree. sigh.) but the branches are slowly becoming more like a gum tree. Unfortunately my lack of photography skills really shine with this tree and I can't get a decent photo that doesn't make it look skinny and top heavy. Anyway here it is:
I defoliated it completely last November so for a while the leaves were really small but are now a bit bigger with the subsequent growth.
The next tree is also a River Red Gum that was grown from the same batch of seed as the last tree, but this one has been totally restyled with multiple leaders and shallower angles. As a result the secondary and tertiary branches are still being put in place and the leaves are quite large. The bottom right branch is growing out to thicken it. Hopefully this year I'll be able to start on the fine foliage and leaf reduction (and take it out of it's current plastic training pot).
Any other Eucalyptus out there?
Matt.
This one is a River Red Gum that I grew from seed about 12 years ago. This was originally grown in a less naturalistic style which is why is has a single curved trunk (like a deciduous tree. sigh.) but the branches are slowly becoming more like a gum tree. Unfortunately my lack of photography skills really shine with this tree and I can't get a decent photo that doesn't make it look skinny and top heavy. Anyway here it is:
I defoliated it completely last November so for a while the leaves were really small but are now a bit bigger with the subsequent growth.
The next tree is also a River Red Gum that was grown from the same batch of seed as the last tree, but this one has been totally restyled with multiple leaders and shallower angles. As a result the secondary and tertiary branches are still being put in place and the leaves are quite large. The bottom right branch is growing out to thicken it. Hopefully this year I'll be able to start on the fine foliage and leaf reduction (and take it out of it's current plastic training pot).
Any other Eucalyptus out there?
Matt.
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