JBP air-layering -- it is a goner!

[daiviet_nguyen]

This is my second attempt at air-layering Japanese black pine.



In the photo above, the branch in the foreground is the air-layered branch. It was carried out on the 16/10/2011. I was hoping for a seven-trunk black pine bush!

I think it is gone! The colour of the needles just keep getting "yellower" and "yellower"!

This black pine is on the ground. Very strong grower -- and this happens?

Thinking back, on the day when the air-layering was being done. I actually cut off the tip-node of this branch. I did seal it. But the bleeding was profuse.

I cannot be a 100% certain that bleeding was the cause of this failure. But it is certainly not advisable.

With my first and successful JBP layer, the needles stayed green all the way through.

I guess till October this year then!

[anttal63]

Too bad Daviet Was it protected from elements where it is growing ? Too hot a sun or wind ??? Oh well its fun trying again !!!

[alpineart]

Hi Daiviet , mate that's not good news at all . When i severe thick branches on pines i usually put a tourniquet on them .Some say let them bleed but i have lost tree's in the past through bleeding out especially if a branch is removed close to the trunk .I leave a stub and place a wire on it . What method of layering did you use ? wire and ring bark , open pot or sealed bag ? I'd be interested in knowing the facts on this one . I gave up on wrapping , using open pots on all species seems to work better up here . The failures i had were multi layers , pushing the limits of the tree's beyond their capacity one of those Alpineart pushing the limit things .

Cheers Alpine

[daiviet_nguyen]

Hi Antonio,

This tree is on the ground, so I cannot shelter it from wind or sun. But the position is pretty much similar to where I placed the first one.

This is not the first failure for me. So I will try again this comming October.

Hi Alpine,

I used the bark ring and plastic wrapped method, exactly the same as my first one. This is the one only layer on the entire a tree. It is around 3m tall.

The ring was on the first node from the trunk: that is at the first point where there are secondary branches. The actual length above the ring, that is toward the tip, is nearly 1m long: might be this is too much for it?

I will split pot a try next. Shorter branch and no tip cutting this October.

Thank you for reading

Best regards.

[alpineart]

Hi Daiviet , i believe the plastic wrap method has pitfalls when it comes to the whorls . It is difficult to seal around the branches and the spagnum dries out in differing spots .This has led me to utilizing pots as when watered they are watered evenly . Scoria and spagnum moss 50/50 by volume has worked well for me . I water the layers every day i water my pines , the only issue i have had is curl grubs ,how or why i don't know . I don't think the overly large layer would create a problem unless it couldn't receive enough moisture as the roots began to grow basically dehydrating even though it is attached to the lower trunk it has uptake of moisture from the new roots .

My big fused layer was 1.1m high and it grew roots , the curl grubs basically kill 2 of the fused trunks by eating the roots off . All but 1 trunk remains alive today . I would be inclined to take a closer look at the wrapped layer material to see if it is uniform as in moisture ,if a callous is present or a few roots , throw a split pot on and hope for the best . Good luck mate .

Cheers Alpine

[daiviet_nguyen]

Hi Alpine,

Is this the curl grubs that you have problem with? I have not had problems with them yet. I believe these insect eat woods; in the tropic, they eat live trees, and kill off the branches that they live on.

This afternoon, 18/02/2012, I took the plastic wrap down, and changed it to the split-pot one:



Just split half of the pot off, the hole at the bottom should be around the thickness of the trunk. Along the vertical split, I burnt a few pairs of holes, so that I can sew it up later. On top, around the rim, I also burnt holes all around, at about equal distances; we can run wires through these holes and tie them to upper branches to hold the pot in position.



It does not have any roots, but it still looks alive? In the photo on the right, the is wire mark on the top branch, where I tied the plastic to it with a copper wire.



The pot sewed up and filled; with wires going up to keep the pot in position. I use pure scoria at the bottom half. Then mixture of 2m scoria, pine bark (orchid growing medium), and diatomite, this mixture is on top of the layer point. I also re-applied hardwood rooting powder. On the very top I put some of the moss that was taken off back. The white pebbles are to keep the birds off.

-- I will leave it there for so long as there are still green needles.

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Some observations on split-pot procedures:

• I used to believe that this is harder and takes longer to do than plastic wrapping. But I no longer think this is the case. It is just as easy. Especially the filling up part.
• The branch being layered should be as vertically as possible. This will help to keep the mix in the pot. I had to pull this branch back into the main trunk, and hold it in place with a cable.
• After splitting the pot, we should glue the plastic meshes onto the drainage holes and wait for the glue to dry. But ensure that the glue should not get onto the plastic meshes, thereby blocking water. Once the pot is on the branch, it is hard to keep plastic meshes in place while filling.

[alpineart]

Hi Daiviet , mate it looks good from this end .Split pots are much easier than fiddling around with plastic wraps . I wrap duct tape around the pot to seal it back together , as for the drainage holes i put a small amount of spagnum in the bottom and fill from there . Each to his own but i use the same blend throughout the whole pot so as to give an even moisture content .

I noticed a ring mark is present on 2 branches , tsssk tsssk , thats 25% of the power lost . The pot should be suspended using a wire hooked over not around a branch or whorl so it doesn't slide down over time or during windy days .

That's them grubs alright , they have a mud cocoon in the ground prior to hatching . Its made of the same soil from the immediate area so it looks like a ball of soil .The cocoon is about half the size of a walnut on average .

If you want the branches spread a little , simply slit the pot down so the branches sits in the slot .Only 1or 2 of the little branches look dehydrated or dead so there's hope for it yet . Good luck with it .

Cheers Alpine

[daiviet_nguyen]

Hi Alpine,

In the thread Maples bonsai from seeds from IBC; the author describes that he actual bakes his seed raising medium in oven at 200 degrees for 20 minutes to kill off stuff. I am not sure if this approach is something we could use to sterilise layering mix? At 200 degrees, I think the cocoon will just die off.

I will keep the wind in mind. Might be I will use two pieces off wood with holes at both ends, and bolt them below pot to keep it from sliding down.

Thank you Alpine and regards.

[alpineart]

Hi Daiviet , i have boiled the mixes however it just sprouts the seed in the blends . Baking would no doubt fix the seeds for sure . I have drilled the trunk on the big Alberta Spruce and inserted an aluminum dowel so the pot sits on this . Bolting 2 pieces of wood will restrict somewhat the sap flow .I did think of it at the time and went with the 5 mm alloy dowel . I drilled the hole and knocked it in with a hammer so it was very stable .

Cheers Alpine

[daiviet_nguyen]

I did spotted some matured feeder roots on surface back on 07/April/2013. I covered the top with some more coconut coir. Today 02/June/2013, I checked it again by removing some the top potting layer. I saw some very vibrant feeder roots:



Still there are nothing through the drainage holes yet. I will check it again in mid June and start the reverence process: removing the bark bit by bit till cutting off in mid or late July 2013.

[daiviet_nguyen]

I cut it off on the 17/07/2013. The trunk below the layer point, was pretty much dried out and had long been dead! It was effectively surviving on its own roots for some times.

It was a hectic repotting time, I completely forgot to take any photos of the root ball. But it was spread out to the diameter of the pot instead of clinging into the trunk with plastic wrapping: this is very desirable.

The following photos were taken on the 16/11/2013 -- nearly four ( 4 ) months after it was off:


View -- just a side


View -- another side


View -- The Apex

I think I can be confident that it lives. It is now 76 cm tall from the pot surface. Not much to look at as expected.

In total, it has eight ( 8 ) "trunks", three ( 3 ) are very small and very weak still. I'm hoping that with their own roots, these smaller trunks will pick up the pace somehow. I'm planing a seven-trunk tree, but that might be pushing it a bit a too much, I think a five-trunk one is quite possible.

[alpineart]

Hi Daiviet , mate it looks like a good outcome . I have had mixed results with multi trunks finding most die off in a season or two leaving the main trunk . Then again they all suffered neglect over the last 2 years as has everything around here . Just getting back into the routine now .

Cheers . Alpine

[daiviet_nguyen]

Hi Alpine,

I think it is a good outcome too. Thanks go to you for suggesting the split pot in the first place

Regarding the multi trunk, I'm thinking that if they have their own roots, there is no reason why they should weaken and die. I have a good multi-trunk result with trident maple, but no pines yet.

Thank you and best regards.

[alpineart]

Hi Daiveit , I too have had good results with deciduous , but the pines struggle with multi trunk layer here after they have been severed . Best of luck with it and glad i could help . I'm stuck on the idea of split pots and wouldn't use any other method for any species .

Cheers Alpine.

[rodm]

Hi Daiviet,I'm trying a similar thing with a JBP for two reasons 1 I only want shohin size bonsais ie 15-20 cms and secondly the tree I got of Neil Padbury,which is a great tree, as he advised me has a slight reverse taper at the top. Started only want the lower section but have found another tree at the top hence the air layering. Pics and more posted on Bonsai south forum. Oh this is my very first time at air layering, so here goes all or nothing. cheers Rod