Dangers of a Wet Layer

[Elmar]

Thx Ray,
That clears up some 'pre/mis-concotions' of mine...


Cheers
Elmar

[Ray M]

Hi folks,
I thought I should update where I am concerning Wet Layers. In the following I have marked in red the changes I've made to the first post.

Dangers of a Wet Layer
I have been researching this issue for eighteen months or more. My research shows that a Wet Layer is more detrimental to an Air Layer than a dry layer. I have finished my research for now and have added my Conclusion to the bottom of this article.

IMG_0060 -2.jpg

A wet layer will appear quite brown in colour. If you squeeze the plastic you will see a lot of water in the layer. If a couple of holes are put in the bottom of the layer, and you squeeze the layer, you may find quite a lot of water will drain out.

IMG_0063 -2.jpg

After the plastic an sphagnum moss is removed, you will notice the muck and the branch are quite wet. There will be no sign of roots.
A real danger is that the excess moisture can root the branch/trunk, and prevent roots from forming.

I have applied the following two procedures to try and prevent this from happening.

SEALING THE ENDS OF THE LAYER

IMG_0067 -V-2.jpg

After the layer has been placed on the tree, and the plastic has been bound, I seal the layer with electrical tape.
If the layer is a vertical layer, only seal the top.

IMG_0067 -3.jpg

If the layer is a horizontal layer, seal both top and bottom.

IMG_0068 -3.jpg

If it's a vertical layer leave the bottom of the Alfoil open as shown.
I only bind the top and about half way down, this binding is simply to prevent the Alfoil from being blown off by the wind.
The idea of opening the Alfoil is to prevent capturing any water inside the Alfoil.

IMG_0070 -4.jpg

If it's a horizontal layer leave the bottom of the Alfoil open.
I only bind the two ends.

Saving the Layer
Can the layer be rescued? The answer is yes, as long as there is still good growth on the layer.
1. Remove the plastic, sphagnum moss, muck and wire.
2. Clean the area with a spray bottle.
3. Make a new cut above the old top cut until you can see new tissue.
4. Now do all the other steps to complete the new layer.
5. Make sure you squeeze most of the water out of the sphagnum. Don't have it too wet.
6. After the layer is completed seal the end/ends as described above.
7. Make sure you leave the Alfoil open at the bottom. This prevents water gathering in the Alfoil, which can wick up into the layer.

Conclusion
I have come to the conclusion that the extra steps I am taking now to prevent wet layers is certainly worth the effort. I am now convinced that it is better to have the layers dryer. In my books I mention that I don't squeeze all the moisture out of the sphagnum moss. I would now recommend that most of the liquid be squeezed out before placing on the layer. It is much easier to rehydrate the layer when needed. If you start with a wet layer it most probably won't take.
To rehydrate a layer, check the section in either book on Dry Layers. If there is condensation under the plastic there is still sufficient moisture. If there is no sign of condensation and the layer is starting to look much whiter it would need to be rehydrated. When doing this, don't overdo it. It would be better to do this a couple of time rather than saturating the layer.

Rehydrate-2.jpg

Regards Ray

[Truth]

Thanks for following through with this Ray. I'd like you to elaborate a little further on how you actually water and frequency if you wouldn't mind.

I've got my first ever batch of layers on 2 garden Japanese Maples at the moment, I have the sphagnum moss encased within plastic like your diagrams have. I used cable ties on each ends to seal them off, and have wrapped foil around it. I have poked many holes through all sides of the plastic, so theoretically drainage and circulation shouldn't be an issue. I will however adopt your method of foil coverage.

I notice you use a syringe to water, and that's what i've been doing too. What volume of water do you generally use, and what frequency? I feel like my watering method of injecting the bag with as much water until it starts squirting out the holes, then firmly squeezing most out probably isn't ideal, however I don't know what else I should be doing?

[Ray M]

Hi Truth,

Thanks for following through with this Ray. I'd like you to elaborate a little further on how you actually water and frequency if you wouldn't mind.

I've got my first ever batch of layers on 2 garden Japanese Maples at the moment, I have the sphagnum moss encased within plastic like your diagrams have. I used cable ties on each ends to seal them off, and have wrapped foil around it. I have poked many holes through all sides of the plastic, so theoretically drainage and circulation shouldn't be an issue. I will however adopt your method of foil coverage.

I notice you use a syringe to water, and that's what i've been doing too. What volume of water do you generally use, and what frequency? I feel like my watering method of injecting the bag with as much water until it starts squirting out the holes, then firmly squeezing most out probably isn't ideal, however I don't know what else I should be doing? Please don't think me rude when I say this is not a good idea. If you have to squeeze water out of a layer there is a high probability that you will damage any new roots that may be growing. The roots are very fragile and will very easily be broken. When I rehydrate a layer I don't use plain water. I use a Seasol mix, about 3ml per litre.
When to Rehydrate?
There is no one answer. Many layers, that only take 2/3 months, I may never have to rehydrate. My method of determining if they need more fluid is by visual check. If you can see any condensation under the plastic they don't need any more fluid. If there is no sign of condensation and the layers look quite white they need to be rehydrated. Don't inject to much into the layer. You are better to put a little in, wait a few days and check. If there is still no condensation you could add a little more. When injecting more fluid do it on the top of the layer so the fluid will seep down through the layer.

Hope this may help.

Regards Ray

[Truth]

Oh so you barely need to water at all! Rightio then, I was under the impression most did it every 3 days or so. I've been doing it once a week, but I haven't seen any roots yet so I don't think I would've damaged anything as of yet.

[Ray M]

Oh so you barely need to water at all! Rightio then, I was under the impression most did it every 3 days or so. I've been doing it once a week, but I haven't seen any roots yet so I don't think I would've damaged anything as of yet.

Hi Truth,
Don't forget there are two ways that are mostly used for Air Layering.
1/ The layer is encapsulated in plastic. This is the method we are discussing in this thread.
2/ The layer is in an open pot. If this method is used the water will drain out the same as a tree in a pot. Therefore the layer would be watered each day the same as a tree in a pot.

Regards Ray

[Truth]

Thanks Ray, i've been using the encapsulated in plastic method. The pot method seems like it would be great, however i'm having to deal with mostly horizontal branches on my stock tree.

[Bonsaiforest]

Hi Ray... Absolutely love this post. Heaps of information that will be very useful to many members in the future.
You mention Your Books...? Sparked a lot of interest in my little head...Love learning...Information is key. How do I get a hold of them & what would be the average price point...? What specific topics are covered & are they mainly focussed on Bonsai...?

I have a Zelkova Serrata that I layered 2 weeks ago.(I've only layered twice before....! 1 successful & 1 not) After reading your post went and checked and the moss was way to moist. So have squeezed out most of the moisture and re-wrapped. Then wrapped glad wrap over plastic bag to apply even pressure to moss. And then covered with foil. I was surprised to see that there wasn't any swelling around top cut and tourniquet wire. Was hoping to see a little movement but probably too early to tell. Was wondering if you have layered Zelkova's before...? If so roughly how long it took to produce roots...?

[Ray M]

Hi Bonsaiforest,

Hi Ray... Absolutely love this post. Heaps of information that will be very useful to many members in the future.
You mention Your Books...? Sparked a lot of interest in my little head...Love learning...Information is key. How do I get a hold of them & what would be the average price point...? What specific topics are covered & are they mainly focussed on Bonsai...? Will send you a PM with all the info.

I have a Zelkova Serrata that I layered 2 weeks ago.(I've only layered twice before....! 1 successful & 1 not) After reading your post went and checked and the moss was way to moist. So have squeezed out most of the moisture and re-wrapped. Then wrapped glad wrap over plastic bag to apply even pressure to moss. And then covered with foil. I was surprised to see that there wasn't any swelling around top cut and tourniquet wire. Was hoping to see a little movement but probably too early to tell. Was wondering if you have layered Zelkova's before...? If so roughly how long it took to produce roots...? I havn't done one of these yet. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work very well. If it was done at this time of year I would expect success in about three months.

Regards Ray

[Bonsaiforest]

Thanks Ray. Looking forward to it.

[Bonsaiforest]

Hi Ray...Here is a Pic of the Zelkova that I'm layering. The trunk is 7.5cm thick. Should increase the sphagnum moss around layer...or do you think that what I currently have is substantial. If more is needed could you please advise...

[Ray M]

Hi Ray...Here is a Pic of the Zelkova that I'm layering. The trunk is 7.5cm thick. Should increase the sphagnum moss around layer...or do you think that what I currently have is substantial. If more is needed could you please advise...

Hi Bonsaiforest,
Mate, I would use triple that amount of sphagnum. A good volume of moss does two important things. It provides moisture for a longer period of time and gives the roots plenty of room to grow into. Using too little moss is something I've observed when people are doing layers.
Have a look at the volume of roots in the following photos. The trunk on your layer is quite a bit larger than the layer in the photos. So you need to make sure there is plenty of room for roots to grow into.

Roots Trident bottom-1.jpg

Roots Trident-1.jpg

Regards Ray

[Bonsaiforest]

Thought it looked a little odd... Thick trunk, large canopy & then a small layer half way down the trunk. Yep...I'm definitely still learning & thanks for the confirmation of adding extra moss. Will be on my to'do list for tomorrow.

Thanks again Ray...Cant wait until my books arrive...Maybe then I wont have as many questions

[Ray M]

Hi Bonsaiforest,

Thought it looked a little odd... Thick trunk, large canopy & then a small layer half way down the trunk. Yep...I'm definitely still learning & thanks for the confirmation of adding extra moss. Will be on my to'do list for tomorrow.

Thanks again Ray...Cant wait until my books arrive...Maybe then I wont have as many questions. Please wait until you read your books. You may find that you need to do more than just add more moss.

Regards Ray

[Bonsaiforest]

No worries...Will do