Thoughts on Collected Australian native material.

[Elmar]

Elmar, collecting in hot dry areas is going to be difficult. If you can, dig after the rainy season (do you have a rainy season?). Or move to Victoria.

Good luck,

Gavin

G'Day Gavin,

been thinking about this since you've posted ... What are the alternatives (apart from moving east - not yet possible)?

1) water a couple of days/weeks before hand?
2) Airlayer?
3) take cuttings?
4) move east...

Whats the consensus?

[GavinG]

I don't know, becauseI haven't been where you are. If you do have a wet season, I'm guessing the end of it would probably be safest. If you don't have a wet season, success is unlikely - the roots will go down miles, and be undig-able. If you can find material along water-courses, trees that are about to be bulldozed, they'd be worth a try.

Cuttings are possible, layering is not likely unless you visit frequently to keep them moist. Seeds and tube stock are the easiest, but take longest.

Once again, your environment is not what we're used to, you'll need to develop successful techniques by trial and error.

Once you have stock, grow long, cut back hard each year to get a solid trunk. Many natives don't take kindly to being cut back to bare wood - once again, experiment.

Trees that are indigenous to your area will be unique, and make unique bonsai once you figure out their perversities. it may take time, but well worth it.

Good luck,

Gavin

[fossil finder]

I like your point about obtaining plants from gardens Ken. The issue really, at its most basic is are you taking plants for financial profit or not? are you taking plants from public land or private by permission? The way I look at it gardens, overgrown nursery stock and what I'll call, 'chance finds' are a exciting and new challenging frontier for bonsai artists that care about the enviroment and those that follow us. My interpretion of the available history and philosophy of bonsai was not that proponents make heaps of bucks but to but to bring, in a tangible way, nature inside the home.

Say you love Banksia serrata. You would find that this species falls in ecosystem types that have been over exploited and reduced to a only a small fraction of its former range since european settlement. Within each ecosystem type is a range of fantastic wonderfulspecies that frequently don't occur in other ecosystems and sadly too often, are a species (plant & animal) that are threatened like ...? koalas, brush-tailed phascogale, glossy black cockatoo etc. Digging 100 year old Banksia serrata on public land??....enough said.......

A possible incentive to officially acknowledge growers aiming to acheive ecological sustainability would be to acknowledge a 'hey I'm just trying to do the right thing' category' so more plants in training are acknowledged as younger plants worthy of merit.... .and value.

[shibui]

I've kept out of this one so far Fossil finder but just have to agree with you. Natural grown native plants should be left where they are - for the environment and for the rest of us to admire in-situ. I've put this view forward before in regards to beautiful waterswept callistemons in the Ovens river now gone so no-one gets to appreciate their beauty.
There was some mention of harvesting sustainably. To me that means planting the stock and harvesting when it is ready on an ongoing basis, not ripping out natural grown stock in which we have no investment in time or energy. Wild grown stock has no business in commercial bonsai.
The problem with 'rescuing' 'endangered' trees is that there is no certification or provenance that shows which side of the fence the stock came from.

[Pup]

Land clearing, not saved end up as mulch.

[Arthur Pentacost]

Thank you fossil finder. Collection will only be abused (as it is in Europe and the US) and should not be encouraged. If you in insist on us growing these species, learn to grow them properly.

Arthur

[thoglette]

Natural grown native plants should be left where they are - for the environment and for the rest of us to admire in-situ.

Lovely sentiments but we've got a govt here that's about to bulldoze a pristine swamp; a 250m wide x 5km long bit of old growth scrubland for a freeway and is still actively encouraging clearing and flattening (literally) all land within 5km of the coast.

As a bonus I'm sure there'll be a few old-growth forest logging permits thrown in for good measure. Which will be clear felled.

Now, tell me again, what should be done with the Yamadori opportunities in these areas? Let them burn with the rest of the timber?

I think that, in this context, it is being a bit twee to complain about potential confusion between rescued and stolen yamadori when there's wholesale habitat destruction going on.

[fossil finder]

Your reply makes me think you're pretty upset that somebody has suggested bonsai artists should respect the laws about taking native plants. How we advanced to old growth arguments I don't know but I think I know exactly where you are coming from. As previously suggested people interested in taking native plants should look for areas to be cleared and approach the council/local authority and ask for permission.
Unsustainable but lawful clearing should not give us the green light to dig up plants anywhere we like. It would be such a short term view of self interest above all else to view public land as ones private nursery. If everybody thought like that what would we have? Oh yes.....nothing. Bonsai is a changing art form and our attitudes must evolve as well beyond one of environmental vandals that have rights others don't.

[treeman]

I have not read this entire thread and maybe someone mentioned it, but just for a bit of perspective:

How people grow bonsai in this country?
How many of those grow natives?
How many of those grow wild collected trees?
How many of those would bother going out to collect?
How many trees would they collect?

Answer...It's like spitting in the ocean.

[Reece]

I have not read this entire thread and maybe someone mentioned it, but just for a bit of perspective:

How people grow bonsai in this country?
How many of those grow natives?
How many of those grow wild collected trees?
How many of those would bother going out to collect?
How many trees would they collect?

Answer...It's like spitting in the ocean.

Yes these are my exact thoughts.....

Sent from my SM-G925I using Tapatalk

[fossil finder]

But why should such a small elite demographic be able to take what others can't? Private land is different and that will continue to be a source of bonsai material. If you must take yamadori from an ecosystem to make it feel right why not offer a landholder cash. Public land is different and unless it is going to be cleared anyway it shouldn't be taken as this is unlawful in most places. Again contact the relevent authority.
You would find it hard to find yamadori in Japan now. There's a message to be learn't there.

[treeman]

But why should such a small elite demographic be able to take what others can't?

Did I say that? My point is that a tiny handful of collected material of common species from millions of square miles makes no difference. A small (natural) bushfire would wipe out 100 years of such collecting in a few hours. Same with land clearing, back burning, flooding etc etc.

quote] Public land is different and unless it is going to be cleared anyway it shouldn't be taken as this is unlawful in most places.[/quote]

No one is arguing that it is illegal. The fact remains that the collection of a few hundred trees will make no difference whatsoever to the Australian ecology.

You would find it hard to find yamadori in Japan now.There's a message to be learn't there.

A different situation. Japan has probably 100 times the bonsai growers that we will ever have. Most of the collected material was shimpaku which was in very limited numbers on a few mountains.
Not quite the same as 1000 miles of coast with hundreds of millions of coastal tea trees or vast plains of melaleucas for example.
As another example, when I visited Port Campbell a few years back, I saw mile after mile of Leucopogon parviflorus. These plants where about 1 metre high. All where beautiful windswept masterpeices. If everyone who grew bonsai in australia took 10 each of these, no one would notice them missing. (not even the birds) There where literally millions of them.
Granted almost impossible to remove successfully

[thoglette]

Your reply makes me think you're pretty upset that somebody has suggested bonsai artists should respect the laws about taking native plants.

Did I say that? No, I did not. I am sorry that my statement was not clear enough (and I note that I probably responded to not-the-best post). What I was responding to was Arthur's assertion below.

Collection will only be abused (as it is in Europe and the US) and should not be encouraged.

In a WA context where the bonsai community is rescuing plants from the ongoing massive clearing, this position, to put it politely, appears at odds with the facts, as I am currently aware of them.

That is, there are little or no examples of members of the bonsai community taking material from anywhere other than from private property or land clearances.

[treeman]

In a WA context where the bonsai community is rescuing plants from the ongoing massive clearing, this position is, to put it politely, a point of view which appears at odds with the facts

.

It is certainly not rare to find many albeit well intentioned opinions to be at odds with the facts!

[fossil finder]

The fact there are many bushfires and that fires are expected to increase in some areas is a reason in itself a reason not to put more impact on some places. Many regional ecosystems are already well below 30% which is the generally accepted minimum to be retained if that ecosystem is to be maintained. From memory the New England Tableland was down to about 11% ten years ago and thats not a unique situation. Some ecosystems like wallum have already been disproportionately creamed on a regional scale so creating greater impact is just not the right thing to do especially when you consider species that are dependant on a particular.ecosystem or component of a said ecosystem.

It's worth just considering how many places in Australia have been degraded because we don't understand fully a threatening process. Yamadori collecting could become what is called a threatening process once a market is established and it would be naive to think everything everywhere would be dandy over time. I know that the amount of bushrock collecting for landscaping has heavily impacted various fauna species near Sydney. If they weren't protected many Waratah surviving now wouldn't be there because of the previous popularity of wildflower collecting in the 1800 &1900's.....same thing